ty
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Post by ty on Jan 3, 2019 18:35:15 GMT -5
Below is a picture of a Vcarve Inlay of the Snake and the Wheel from Wheel of Time Series. It is maple in walnut which contrasts very nicely. The curves of the snake came out particularly nicely.
I am also looking for some help from anyone who has more experience or knows how to minimize the tear out of the wood, particularly the male piece. I have tried to slow down the feed-rate and raised the speed, which does help, but I am having trouble with the extremely small details as evidenced by the close up of the wheel spokes and snake head. I've also been lurking on the Vectric Forum and have been through the post on vcarve inlays there but would still appreciate some knowledge.
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Post by aluomala on Jan 3, 2019 19:15:28 GMT -5
You didn't indicate what type of wood it is, or the type of bit you used. For the bit, I HIGHLY recommend the 30 degree 1/4" shank Kyocera scoring and engraving tool. Drillman1 sells these on his eBay page (here is link to the individual bit (currently out of stock) but I have bought them as 5 packs in the past. Link Best bang for your buck, by far, for a CNC bit. You can also buy 1/8" shank bits from him, assuming you have the proper collet or insert sleeve. WARNING: these bits are sharp. VERY SHARP! Don't ask me how I know, but it involved a trip to the emergency room (and the spindle wasn't even spinning).
As for the wood, I have read on some forums that people will coat the wood with a shellac, or similar, mixture to make the surface grains stronger. I have never tried it, but it might work to help the tearing out. I suspect the single most important factor is a sharp bit (with the correct feeds/speeds, naturally) but I have had great success with the bit I mentioned earlier. I also have an 18 degree scoring bit, but I'm too terrified to use it since those things are so sharp/fragile. I keep saying I'm going to use it but I never do (so I don't break it). It's like trying to keep white shoes white forever though: only way is to never wear (use) them. It looks nice in my display case, though  Allan |
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Post by gerry on Jan 3, 2019 19:20:37 GMT -5
+1.... Sharp bits, thinned shellac for softer woods....
Also, slow the feed way down. Ploughing through tends to pull out the chips. A second, duplicate pass can help remove any fuzzies.
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ty
New Member
Posts: 20
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Post by ty on Jan 3, 2019 19:41:00 GMT -5
You didn't indicate what type of wood it is, or the type of bit you used. For the bit, I HIGHLY recommend the 30 degree 1/4" shank Kyocera scoring and engraving tool. Drillman1 sells these on his eBay page (here is link to the individual bit (currently out of stock) but I have bought them as 5 packs in the past. Link Best bang for your buck, by far, for a CNC bit. You can also buy 1/8" shank bits from him, assuming you have the proper collet or insert sleeve. WARNING: these bits are sharp. VERY SHARP! Don't ask me how I know, but it involved a trip to the emergency room (and the spindle wasn't even spinning).
As for the wood, I have read on some forums that people will coat the wood with a shellac, or similar, mixture to make the surface grains stronger. I have never tried it, but it might work to help the tearing out. I suspect the single most important factor is a sharp bit (with the correct feeds/speeds, naturally) but I have had great success with the bit I mentioned earlier. I also have an 18 degree scoring bit, but I'm too terrified to use it since those things are so sharp/fragile. I keep saying I'm going to use it but I never do (so I don't break it). It's like trying to keep white shoes white forever though: only way is to never wear (use) them. It looks nice in my display case, though Allan I am using a Freud 1/2" 60 degree V-bit, I also had used the 3/4" 90 degree V-bit but was not have any luck with that as well. They are both lightly used and recently cleaned but might be dulled and are ripping the fibers but I am not sure. The 60 degree V-bit did do better when I slowed it down to about a fifth of the feedrate I had been using, but still pulls off the really fine details.
The wood is S3S walnut and the inlay is a rough maple I milled myself.
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Post by aluomala on Jan 3, 2019 20:09:25 GMT -5
I'm not saying you can't use a 60 degree bit to do what you want to do, but it seems unlikely. The cost of those bits (buy a multi-pack to take advantage of the savings in shipping AND you will likely break a few in the learning process (I broke 3 in one day due to a faulty wire in my touch-off puck, so I use the paper/waxpaper method of zeroing Z height now for any bit that is small/fragile) is very low compared to other bits (I use Amana bits almost exclusively now, which average $50US per). Trying to get the 60degree bit to do what a 30 degree (or smaller) bit can do is just an exercise in frustration and wasted wood and time.
The woods you are using should lend themselves very well to this type of work (the grain contrast and strength of the grain), in my limited experience. I think that if you are going to do this type of work, you have to use the materials/tools that lend themselves to it, and not try to "make do" or mess around chasing settings etc that will never end up working. The one thing I might recommend is playing around with glue/sawdust mixtures to help fill in the gaps (broken off sections on both the male/female sections). I keep little plastic containers by my machine, and after a finishing pass I knock off the wood dust onto a piece of paper and funnel it into the plastic containers. I have heard of some guys using coffee grinders to make regular sawdust/chips fine enough to mix in with glue. ANother note: TitebondIII is a good all purpose glue, but it dries relatively dark, so use a different glue for doing your inlays (if you are using lighter coloured woods).
Allan
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ty
New Member
Posts: 20
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Post by ty on Jan 3, 2019 21:02:22 GMT -5
I'm not saying you can't use a 60 degree bit to do what you want to do, but it seems unlikely. The cost of those bits (buy a multi-pack to take advantage of the savings in shipping AND you will likely break a few in the learning process (I broke 3 in one day due to a faulty wire in my touch-off puck, so I use the paper/waxpaper method of zeroing Z height now for any bit that is small/fragile) is very low compared to other bits (I use Amana bits almost exclusively now, which average $50US per). Trying to get the 60degree bit to do what a 30 degree (or smaller) bit can do is just an exercise in frustration and wasted wood and time. The woods you are using should lend themselves very well to this type of work (the grain contrast and strength of the grain), in my limited experience. I think that if you are going to do this type of work, you have to use the materials/tools that lend themselves to it, and not try to "make do" or mess around chasing settings etc that will never end up working. The one thing I might recommend is playing around with glue/sawdust mixtures to help fill in the gaps (broken off sections on both the male/female sections). I keep little plastic containers by my machine, and after a finishing pass I knock off the wood dust onto a piece of paper and funnel it into the plastic containers. I have heard of some guys using coffee grinders to make regular sawdust/chips fine enough to mix in with glue. ANother note: TitebondIII is a good all purpose glue, but it dries relatively dark, so use a different glue for doing your inlays (if you are using lighter coloured woods). Allan Thanks Allan, this is a lot of good information to process. I have purchased the 30 degree v bits (and a new collet to hold them) so as soon as they get here I can try them out.
The glue trick is a good idea, I have enough sawdust to last a while and will certainly be making more. Do you have any good glue recommendations that don't show up in the final inlay?
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zaxis4
Junior Member
Posts: 162
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Post by zaxis4 on Jan 3, 2019 21:27:27 GMT -5
This is the best explanation of vcarve inlays I have found. He makes sense to me. I do a lot of inlays. A lot with maple and walnut. Since I watched this video by Shawn Gano and adapted his technique to projects I do, I have had few problems. Most everything I do I use a 60 bit. Depending on the size of your inlay a 30 will cut too deep. Remember the depth of your cut is determined by the distance between the lines in your pattern for the most part. I'll bet if you set up like he does a lot of your problems will go away.
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Post by aluomala on Jan 3, 2019 21:52:20 GMT -5
This is the best explanation of vcarve inlays I have found. He makes sense to me. I do a lot of inlays. A lot with maple and walnut. Since I watched this video by Shawn Gano and adapted his technique to projects I do, I have had few problems. Most everything I do I use a 60 bit. Depending on the size of your inlay a 30 will cut too deep. Remember the depth of your cut is determined by the distance between the lines in your pattern for the most part. I'll bet if you set up like he does a lot of your problems will go away. You can adjust the depth of cut in Aspire, so it can be as deep or shallow as you wish. For larger inlay, I was using a .25" depth for the female portion, and then a starting depth of .1" with a flat depth of .1" (total of .2" deep, allowing .05" for glue, wood chips etc. I also use a small end mill for the Flat Area Clearance tool (usually .25", but down to .0625" for small areas) as well as hand tools (chisels, scrapers, scalpel-style knives, etc) to clean up any areas that the CNC didn't get to. I try not to do this as much any more, since I find that the odds of ruining a nice smooth curve with an errant tool (I have shaky hands at the best of times....) increase with the time spent doing it. Let the CNC do the heavy lifting (and fine detail, in this case) I say! I haven't done it yet, but I'm thinking about the best way to get the areas that are too large for the 30 degree, but too small for the endmill. I think a second tool path, using a small inward offset of the main vectors (on the female portion) will get those areas, and using a flat bottomed v-bit (like the Amana InGroove series) might work, but that would involve a tool change, and that's when most of my problems begin (possible issues with Z depth being off; different angles between the 2 bits; just overall "Murphy's Law" issues coming into play. The next time I do a fine inlay, I'm going to try my offset vector idea (let the machine do the work!) and see how that plays out. It's a bit more time on the computer, but it's better than mandraulically doing the work. Allan |
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Post by aluomala on Jan 3, 2019 21:57:53 GMT -5
I'm not saying you can't use a 60 degree bit to do what you want to do, but it seems unlikely. The cost of those bits (buy a multi-pack to take advantage of the savings in shipping AND you will likely break a few in the learning process (I broke 3 in one day due to a faulty wire in my touch-off puck, so I use the paper/waxpaper method of zeroing Z height now for any bit that is small/fragile) is very low compared to other bits (I use Amana bits almost exclusively now, which average $50US per). Trying to get the 60degree bit to do what a 30 degree (or smaller) bit can do is just an exercise in frustration and wasted wood and time. The woods you are using should lend themselves very well to this type of work (the grain contrast and strength of the grain), in my limited experience. I think that if you are going to do this type of work, you have to use the materials/tools that lend themselves to it, and not try to "make do" or mess around chasing settings etc that will never end up working. The one thing I might recommend is playing around with glue/sawdust mixtures to help fill in the gaps (broken off sections on both the male/female sections). I keep little plastic containers by my machine, and after a finishing pass I knock off the wood dust onto a piece of paper and funnel it into the plastic containers. I have heard of some guys using coffee grinders to make regular sawdust/chips fine enough to mix in with glue. ANother note: TitebondIII is a good all purpose glue, but it dries relatively dark, so use a different glue for doing your inlays (if you are using lighter coloured woods). Allan Thanks Allan, this is a lot of good information to process. I have purchased the 30 degree v bits (and a new collet to hold them) so as soon as they get here I can try them out.
The glue trick is a good idea, I have enough sawdust to last a while and will certainly be making more. Do you have any good glue recommendations that don't show up in the final inlay?
TitebondII is good, and I recently bought a clear glue that I'm going to try out (can't remember the name) the next time I do inlay work. I bought it to secure small fragile pieces (so the glue wouldn't show) but never used it (I tried "glue dots" from craft store, which are just small tabs of clear double sided tape.... worked a treat, in conjunction with "regular" glue where I was certain it wouldn't ooze out, mainly because I was concerned about how long the glue dots would last (the "forever" claims on the box seemed dubious to me ). Not much of a testimonial for either (the clear glue, or the glue dots) but sometimes you gotta try different things and hope for the best. |
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zaxis4
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Posts: 162
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Post by zaxis4 on Jan 3, 2019 22:23:07 GMT -5
Well...I just set up my pattern with the clearance areas flat depth etc. I select an appropriate flat area clearance tool and VCarve does the rest. It is a one shot deal with each, male and female part. I never try to go over anything with a different cutter, or hand tools. The CNC doesn't miss any areas?? I do go through the code twice to get rid of most fuzzies. The parts are sandwiched together and clamped with good pressure then cut and drum sanded. I guess I am lucky because I get extremely fine detail and few failures. I am probably not understanding what you mean. Shawn's numbers seem to work pretty good for most work. I think his extra clearance idea really helps.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 15:51:01 GMT -5
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Post by laflippin on Jan 9, 2019 17:07:54 GMT -5
re: "I was using a .25" depth for the female portion, and then a starting depth of .1" with a flat depth of .1" (total of .2" deep, allowing .05" for glue, wood chips etc"
I think there is a misconception here: For carving the male workpiece in a Zank VIP project, the start depth actually defines how deeply the male inlay inserts into the female engraving while the flat depth defines the width of a gap between the surface of the female workpiece and the waste backing material of the male workpiece after the pieces are coupled.
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ty
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Post by ty on Jan 9, 2019 20:40:01 GMT -5
Well I tried again with all the help and it turned out much better.  Both pieces cut extremely well, I ended up getting the 30 degree .125" Kyocera bits and they are extremely sharp, as warned. I also adjusted the cut depth and used .15 for my flat depth on the female side and .1 start depth and .1 cut depth on the male side. Additionally, I ended up surfacing the boards with a mortising bit on my machine to verify everything was flat in relationship with the bed. All combined it turned out beautifully, I'm excited to try it out with a more complicated design.
Thank you everyone for the help again!
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Post by laflippin on Jan 9, 2019 21:07:35 GMT -5
Very cool work, Ty. Over the past 1/2 year I've developed a true passion for the inlay procedures discovered and first outlined by Paul Zank (Vectric forum member). It could get really fun when you start designing step-wise inlay projects with more than one type of wood... Attachments:
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ty
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Post by ty on Jan 10, 2019 7:59:06 GMT -5
Very cool work, Ty. Over the past 1/2 year I've developed a true passion for the inlay procedures discovered and first outlined by Paul Zank (Vectric forum member). It could get really fun when you start designing step-wise inlay projects with more than one type of wood... I saw those on the Vectric forum and thought they were really neat, especially the rose. I'm excited to try it out! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 6:42:40 GMT -5
Some other things you can do to prevent V-carved tear out (as well as any bit actually). Put painters tape or cutting film over the surface to strengthen the fibers. If the project allows, a coat of shellack with also strengthen the fibers. V-bits that have vertical teeth will cut cleaner than spiral up-cut bits. On occasion, I've also generated an additional toolpath that goes down 0.01-0.02" around the inside edge of the V-groove to precut the fibers so that there is a better finish when doing the heavier cutting. Plus things vary a lot with the material and feed/speed you're using so some experimentation may be in order for your particular circumstances.
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Post by laflippin on Jan 11, 2019 11:17:55 GMT -5
re: "V-bits that have vertical teeth will cut cleaner than spiral up-cut bits"
Eh, are you discussing end mills here? V-bits don't have these characteristics.
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johnb
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New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
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Post by johnb on Jan 13, 2019 10:32:52 GMT -5
fean-
With regard to the In-Carve tools... Given the same price for both 1/2" and 1/4" shanks, what advantage do you see for one size over the other for this (or any) tooling? I'm thinking there might be more stability (less vibration?) in the larger shank...more mass, more inertia, given that the tool is somewhat inherently "out of balance" itself (due to the set-screw). Does the larger shank aid in heat dissipation as well? Thoughts, anyone?
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Post by traindriver on Jan 13, 2019 18:51:31 GMT -5
This is my latest V-carve inlay. I used a 60 degree v-bit for it. This is the first one that I've done using two colors that are supposed to be on top of each other, and while this one came out okay, I would definitely do the next one different. I inlaid the walnut first and rough sanded it, so it looked like this:  Then I went back and put in the padauk. I made a fixture so I could locate the board in the same location for the second inlay, but I was off just a little bit, and you could see a sliver of maple on one side the padauk. That didn't really matter, though because by the time I got the surface sanded smooth, I revealed a small outline of maple almost all the way around the padauk. I thought about sanding the whole thing off and doing it over again, but I like the way it looks because the padauk is so dark, I think it would blend in with the walnut too much the way I had intended it to come out.  The next time I do something like this, I will make the lower walnut border solid instead of divided. That way, it wouldn't matter so much if the padauk inlay is off a little bit. Also, sanding would only reveal walnut, and not the main maple board. |
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Post by laflippin on Jan 13, 2019 19:32:52 GMT -5
That came out really nice, train...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 13:11:45 GMT -5
fean- With regard to the In-Carve tools... Given the same price for both 1/2" and 1/4" shanks, what advantage do you see for one size over the other for this (or any) tooling? I'm thinking there might be more stability (less vibration?) in the larger shank...more mass, more inertia, given that the tool is somewhat inherently "out of balance" itself (due to the set-screw). Does the larger shank aid in heat dissipation as well? Thoughts, anyone? Rigidity increases at the 4th power of diameter and the 3rd power of stick out length, thus the 1/2" shank is 16x more rigid than the 1/4" bit. In short, with non-industrial machines, it means that you can pretty much ignore tool deflection with the larger shanks. Deflection is a very large problem for smaller bits and the number one reason for bits breaking because so many things affect it, such as runout error and machine and setup rigidity. Yes, more mass helps in all the ways you mention as well. Heat should not be a problem if you're not rubbing and using the proper feeds and speeds. Chips are supposed to carry head away from a cut, if they are too small, not properly formed or evacuated then heat will build up in the workpiece and tool. I recently saw a video where someone went to dry ceramic inserts to cut metal instead of carbide and flood coolant because the ceramic could cut at a faster rate and the heat was all removed by the chips so there was no work hardening from heat build-up in the part. Even with the flood coolant, there was work hardening for carbide inserts because the chips weren't pulling the heat out of the cut as they took too long to form and break so they conducted the heat back into the surface of the part. |
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Raspberry Jam Guitars
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Post by Raspberry Jam Guitars on Mar 3, 2020 8:25:37 GMT -5
Also try some clear "Contact" [Which is what it is called in Australia]. This is the sticky plastic stuff we all used to cover books [remember them?] with. I have no idea what you call it but I can still buy it here, 400mm wide rolls of it with a backing sheet and the self-adhesive stuff itself. I cover the entire job with this contact, clear is best as it allows one to see the work underneath and that your fancy bit it actually cutting what it should be. There is a bit of a skill involved, like putting a mobile phone screen protector on with no bubbles. However the theory is this acts as a kind of "top layer" so the wood does not splinter anywhere near as much. The bit cuts through the plastic as well as the wood. Works quite well. It is also awesome for painting vcarved letters. I paint the surface of the carving its finished colour, stick the contact over the whole shebang then carve the letters. i then slosh the paint into the carved letters with gay abandon as the surface proper is masked by the contact sheet. Works really well. Generally there will be a bit of leakage under the contact but I attack that with a moist cloth prior to the letter paint drying. See what you reckon.
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Post by aluomala on Mar 3, 2020 12:14:49 GMT -5
Also try some clear "Contact" [Which is what it is called in Australia]. This is the sticky plastic stuff we all used to cover books [remember them?] with. I have no idea what you call it but I can still buy it here, 400mm wide rolls of it with a backing sheet and the self-adhesive stuff itself. I cover the entire job with this contact, clear is best as it allows one to see the work underneath and that your fancy bit it actually cutting what it should be. There is a bit of a skill involved, like putting a mobile phone screen protector on with no bubbles. However the theory is this acts as a kind of "top layer" so the wood does not splinter anywhere near as much. The bit cuts through the plastic as well as the wood. Works quite well. It is also awesome for painting vcarved letters. I paint the surface of the carving its finished colour, stick the contact over the whole shebang then carve the letters. i then slosh the paint into the carved letters with gay abandon as the surface proper is masked by the contact sheet. Works really well. Generally there will be a bit of leakage under the contact but I attack that with a moist cloth prior to the letter paint drying. See what you reckon. In N America, we generally call that stuff shelf liner. Duck Brand is supposed to be the best, and is sold at WalMart for $10 per roll. Some say it is almost as good as Oramask branded masking products, which cost considerably more. I have never used either (I tried a much cheaper variation, with horrible results a few years ago when I was first starting out, so I'm leery of it) but that's what I've read. Allan |
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Post by buckeye81 on Apr 17, 2020 6:11:15 GMT -5
Any suggestions for the proper bit to cut thin copper sheet?
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