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Post by gerry on Dec 26, 2018 11:49:33 GMT -5
Has anyone looked into adding a third party 4th axis to their Axiom? It seems like you could do it a lot cheaper than $1,000.
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Post by aluomala on Dec 26, 2018 17:45:32 GMT -5
The $1000 buys you detailed instructions and up to date manuals though! 
Allan
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Post by joeblow on Dec 27, 2018 8:28:59 GMT -5
Now that was funny!  |
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Post by joeblow on Dec 28, 2018 9:36:32 GMT -5
All kidding aside, my Axiom rotary has performed flawlessly this past 4 months. It is run daily, on average 5hrs/day, milling small components for a local manufacturer I'm involved with. Nothing too exciting....3 different round stock (1 with o-ring channels milled in) and 1 tapered profile with the company's name v-carved in. I've achieved a tolerance of .003" on all pieces produced with some monkeying around with alignment between headstock and tailstock. Tail sat .01" below headstock out of the box. Took a bit of work re-seating the MT2 spindles to achieve collinear alignment between them as well. Standard procedure in my book. I've repeatedly tested at 6" and 12" lengths with no change in tolerances and all rounds are concentric. Results have been consistent and repeatable day in and day out.
I've run a few 3d models from Vectric's clipart onto 6"x1" roundstock and it worked quite well also. My only complaint has been when running the o-ring channels. I have to break the vector into 2 parts and tool separately as the rotary is unwilling to tool a single vector line 360*, but that has already been documented in previous threads. I do believe spiral fluting can be accomplished as well, just not with the gadget.
...and I've only hit the chuck once so far  (knocking on wood right now ) |
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Post by aluomala on Jan 11, 2019 19:34:30 GMT -5
As much as I like bitching and moaning about Axiom's (lack of) support for the rotary axis, I have a REAL reason to look elsewhere: unless something has changed in the last year or so when I looked into it, the Axiom rotary axis isn't CSA (Canadian Standards Association) approved. Anything that is electrical in Canada has to be CSA approved, and as I understand it, if I were to buy something that isn't CSA approved and it caused a fire, my insurance wouldn't cover it. Now, I know that that is an unlikely occurence, but I don't write the law, I only break it, er, follow it.
With all that said, could somebody point me in the direction of the specs of the Axiom rotary axis (they likely just bought one and re-branded it) so I can look for something that will work with my AR4Pro+.
Thanks,
Allan
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johnb
Full Member
New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
Posts: 326
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Post by johnb on Jan 12, 2019 11:41:22 GMT -5
aluomala--
Since the 4th Axis draws its power through the coupling (to the machine only), even though it is "electrical", wouldn't the CSA approval for the machine itself cover the machine-specific accessories? ...unlike, say...your dust collector. It's kinda like saying..."well, you bought this refrigerator that's CSA rated, but the (factory supplied) installed ice maker isn't, so …tough luck, Charlie".
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Post by aluomala on Jan 12, 2019 21:04:41 GMT -5
aluomala-- Since the 4th Axis draws its power through the coupling (to the machine only), even though it is "electrical", wouldn't the CSA approval for the machine itself cover the machine-specific accessories? ...unlike, say...your dust collector. It's kinda like saying..."well, you bought this refrigerator that's CSA rated, but the (factory supplied) installed ice maker isn't, so …tough luck, Charlie". Government regulations don't have to make sense: they just have to be followed!! I'm not too fussed about the fire issue, but the insurance implications give me pause: imagine my garage caught on fire due to something unrelated (short circuit in wiring elsewhere, for example), but the fire investigators find my un-approved 4th axis, and say "A-ha!!! No insurance for you!! Non-approved appliance!". The likelihood is pretty slim, but one never knows. Still going to see if I can get one direct from Axiom, or perhaps one that is for sale online, or in these forums, perhaps. Maybe the more I crap-talk them (Axiom/rotary axis) the more likely someone will be willing to part with it, for cheap!
Allan
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Post by joeblow on Jan 13, 2019 8:51:43 GMT -5
...could somebody point me in the direction of the specs of the Axiom rotary axis (they likely just bought one and re-branded it) so I can look for something that will work with my AR4Pro+. Thanks, Allan
Hi Alan. I'm not sure what you're looking for here. If there is anything I can provide you off of my rotary, I will gladly do so.
I am very curious what the complaints are regarding the Rotary. I have only seen one to date and that is the inability to do a full 360* radial toolpath. I have had no problem running fillets, rabbits or dados. Simply create the needed profile, break into 2 parts, extend the length a little so they overlap, create 2 toolpaths and press play. The toolpath still runs in a radial manner as opposed to rastering back and forth. I have had no problem running 3d models, 2d flourishes, wrapping text and textures.
I had a machinist friend help me dial in accuracy which made a big difference!
Also very pleased that the head spindle is 1x8tpi so you can use your favorite chuck and the tapers are MT2 which allow for your favorite tailstock center to be used.
So forum members...let's here this list of problems everyone ''seems'' to be having with their Rotary. One of my favorite axioms is...."There are no problems, only opportunities to provide creative thinking!"  |
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Post by Gary Campbell on Jan 13, 2019 9:24:59 GMT -5
With all that said, could somebody point me in the direction of the specs of the Axiom rotary axis (they likely just bought one and re-branded it) so I can look for something that will work with my AR4Pro+.
Thanks, Allan I would disagree. I saw, and operated the first prototype and was in on a couple discussions of improvements for the production model. They are a product designed for Axiom machines. |
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Post by Axiom Tool Group on Jan 21, 2019 11:05:56 GMT -5
Just to set the record straight....the original Pro machines were CSA approved. As the machines were upgraded, the controller changes to the B18 with 4th Axis support...created a need to reapply for the certification.
Currently, no machines are CSA approved.
This approval should be finalized this spring.
In respect to the 4th Axis, CSA approval may not be possible for this as it does not run on its own power...there for is not considered a complete device. Much like the Basic machines, since the motors are not installed as part of the machine...again CSA approval would not be applicable.
As for the manual, the best we can do is provide a manual that covers the installation of the rotary kit. Designs and use of the rotary kit will vary depending on what software is being used and we have no way of directly approaching that.
The recommended software company, Vectric....offers a number of tutorial videos covering the design phase.
In addition, if needed...our Level 2 training class focuses on rotary and wrapped design as part of the curriculum.
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Post by aluomala on Jan 21, 2019 12:00:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification on the CSA issue. I have an email from one of the Canadian distributors outlining what needs to be done on my part (signing a waiver re the lack of CSA approval), so I will defer to both of you on this issue.
The level 2 training: are there any plans in the works to create online courses (whether live-streaming or archived)? As much as hands-on training with the pro's would be beneficial, not everyone can travel to attend these training sessions.
With the advances in tele-conferencing and online course materials, it should be fairly easy to create online course materials to mitigate the travel issues. Even recording the current sessions, with minor editing, would be better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
Allan
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Post by Axiom Tool Group on Jan 21, 2019 12:29:45 GMT -5
The classes are hosted here...but involve a couple different companies.
These classes are somewhat unique in the fact that no one else offers much of anything like it. And while we had considered recording some of the classes, you do not gain from the hands one experience or face to face interaction that comes from the class.
The other side to this is that once the information, videos etc...are available online, then eventually anyone will have easy access to it without having paid for or attended a class.
In that case, there are tons of Vectric how to videos already available but there is really no substitution to learning from Vectric experts first hand.
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johnb
Full Member
New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
Posts: 326
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Post by johnb on Jan 21, 2019 13:25:10 GMT -5
The classes are hosted here...but involve a couple different companies. These classes are somewhat unique in the fact that no one else offers much of anything like it. And while we had considered recording some of the classes, you do not gain from the hands one experience or face to face interaction that comes from the class. The other side to this is that once the information, videos etc...are available online, then eventually anyone will have easy access to it without having paid for or attended a class. In that case, there are tons of Vectric how to videos already available but there is really no substitution to learning from Vectric experts first hand. "...eventually anyone will have easy access to it without having paid for or attended a class. " I will admit to being a little "put off" by the message that you are sending here...while I'm still awaiting the delivery of my machine, the general message is that Axiom is uninterested in providing anything beyond instruction on installation of the 4th axis without having someone come to the training session and pay for it. Bear in mind (among other considerations), that what the user pays Axiom for a hands-on training session pales in comparison to the time and travel cost, airfare, hotels, meals etc when you consider that your customers aren't all handily located any where near your facility. The general "drift" of what I've seen posted in many other threads is that ALL of the documentation (controllers etc) is decidedly on the "thin" side. I can figure out how to install the rotary from your brief marketing video (already out there), and I'm pretty sure I could plug things in where they belong and manage to turn the machine on (when I get it), but I think that what you've just said sends the WRONG message from a manufacturer who is selling expensive machines with many options available. One would think that a manufacturer would have a high level of interest in the success and satisfaction of its user base and facilitate that whenever and wherever it could...maybe through an "owners only" section of the forum (if you don't want to be educating the buyers of competitive machines). This is done in many forums (and at least one "other CNC" manufacturer's forum that I'm aware of). |
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Post by Axiom Tool Group on Jan 21, 2019 14:00:12 GMT -5
John, there are endless sources online from the Vectric directly as well as Youtube for free software training...the software is not our own, and many of our customers prefer to use a different software product.
We can not cover all those products in any form of a manual in regards to rotary design.
There is simply too much in the software to cover...and by all accounts its not generally recommended until a good grasp of the software has been developed.
We have partnered with a software training company that is vetted by Vectric directly to offer training classes, which is something that has not often been offered across the industry in a class room setting, when it is offered formally...the cost far exceeds what we charge by 2-3x.
We do not expect attendees to be Axiom users, in fact many are not. But to be honest, there is little to no need in placing that information online as unless you are a direct participant in the class you will get nothing more from an internet video than you would through any of the 100+ high quality Vectric videos.
Operation of the CNC is really quite simple and should not require a video, as the manual covers setting up a job from start to finish...however, if videos are needed, a complete 10 video segment was filmed by Popular Woodworking and are being loaded as they are released.
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johnb
Full Member
New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
Posts: 326
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Post by johnb on Jan 21, 2019 16:31:17 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to training in general, and not to the software training at all... more the combination of your remark about "not paying for the class" in combination with this from your previous post "As for the manual, the best we can do is provide a manual that covers the installation of the rotary kit". Read more: axiomprecision.proboards.com/thread/879/3rd-party-4th-axis#ixzz5dHMkm7KcCertainly, an installation manual is not "the best you can do". Somewhere in between "nothing" and "all there is" lies a happy median that would include specifications, "do & don't", safety tips, schematic of the cable's connection to the controller box, some guidance on chucks & tailstocks, bolt sizes & thread counts, etc. etc. In short, pretty much the basic documentation you expect to be able to find when you buy anything. |
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Post by aluomala on Jan 21, 2019 18:37:37 GMT -5
John, there are endless sources online from the Vectric directly as well as Youtube for free software training...the software is not our own, and many of our customers prefer to use a different software product. We can not cover all those products in any form of a manual in regards to rotary design. There is simply too much in the software to cover...and by all accounts its not generally recommended until a good grasp of the software has been developed. We have partnered with a software training company that is vetted by Vectric directly to offer training classes, which is something that has not often been offered across the industry in a class room setting, when it is offered formally...the cost far exceeds what we charge by 2-3x. We do not expect attendees to be Axiom users, in fact many are not. But to be honest, there is little to no need in placing that information online as unless you are a direct participant in the class you will get nothing more from an internet video than you would through any of the 100+ high quality Vectric videos. Operation of the CNC is really quite simple and should not require a video, as the manual covers setting up a job from start to finish...however, if videos are needed, a complete 10 video segment was filmed by Popular Woodworking and are being loaded as they are released. I think that is either the boldest statement I have heard, barring anything that has come out of Donald Trump's mouth, or I haven't seen this magnificent piece of documentation. Please provide a link (I have copies of various files that purport to being the official manual (basic, pro, elite) and while they give a basic overview, they are far from a comprehensive document such as this). There is nothing to say that the training has to be free. There are a brazillion guitar sites out there that you have to pay to use (whether it is a monthly thing, or a specific subject to be mastered) that produce instructional videos and the like. A nominal fee could be charged, and if you are worried about the videos being pirated, that's the chance you take. And you could end up with future customers, based on the quality of videos, instruction, etc just because people see them (for free, or otherwise) on the internet. You guys keep doing what you're doing, but don't be surprised if/when people jump ship to companies that actually provide support to their customers. They are out there. If only there was a way to find them. Maybe a computer, the internet, and a web browser.... Eureka! I've discovered Google (about 10 years too late). Allan |
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Post by joeblow on Feb 1, 2019 12:27:10 GMT -5
John, there are endless sources online from the Vectric directly as well as Youtube for free software training...the software is not our own, and many of our customers prefer to use a different software product. We can not cover all those products in any form of a manual in regards to rotary design. There is simply too much in the software to cover...and by all accounts its not generally recommended until a good grasp of the software has been developed. We have partnered with a software training company that is vetted by Vectric directly to offer training classes, which is something that has not often been offered across the industry in a class room setting, when it is offered formally...the cost far exceeds what we charge by 2-3x. We do not expect attendees to be Axiom users, in fact many are not. But to be honest, there is little to no need in placing that information online as unless you are a direct participant in the class you will get nothing more from an internet video than you would through any of the 100+ high quality Vectric videos. Operation of the CNC is really quite simple and should not require a video, as the manual covers setting up a job from start to finish...however, if videos are needed, a complete 10 video segment was filmed by Popular Woodworking and are being loaded as they are released. I think that is either the boldest statement I have heard, barring anything that has come out of Donald Trump's mouth, or I haven't seen this magnificent piece of documentation. Drives me nuts when non-US citizens throw The United States' political climate into the mix of daily converstion to prop up their own statements.You guys keep doing what you're doing, but don't be surprised if/when people jump ship to companies that actually provide support to their customers. They are out there. If only there was a way to find them. Maybe a computer, the internet, and a web browser.... Eureka! I've discovered Google (about 10 years too late). Axiom has incredible support. Any phone call or email has always been promptly replied to with precisely the information I needed in regards to their machines. I know this isn't nice BUT....how are you able to use Google without a ''magnificent piece of documentation'' explaining how it works Allan I wish Theodor Geisel was still around....now that man could make a ''magnificent piece of documentation''. Here is a link to the BEST information I have found.... support.vectric.com/training-materialRant over |
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Post by aluomala on Feb 1, 2019 22:24:36 GMT -5
Nice rant. Feel better? Oddly enough, I like Donald Trump, as do most conservative Canadians that I know, but if I would have used a Canadian (or any non-US) politician as a reference point, I'm sure it would have gone over like a lead balloon. So, were you able to find that manual that covers setting up a job from start to finish (as was stated by Axiom support)? No?!? Neither was anybody else apparently. As for the Google comment (re documentation on using it), I am pretty certain I could find something OFFICIAL (i.e from Google, not a 3rd party) that would assist me in utilizing Google to find things. Well, looky here: link . (That took about 5 seconds, BTW). Anyway, I knew that there would be some fanboys jumping to Axiom's defence, but that still doesn't change that the documentation is sorely lacking (well, lacking completely apparently) for the 4th axis. Between the poor exchange rate at the moment (the 4th axis ends up being about $1,500CDN AND I would have to sign the CSA waiver (as there is no CSA rating on it) to purchase it from a Canadian distributor, which would put me in a poor position if there were to be a fire (insurance wise), and the fact that things don't seem to be moving forward in regards to providing decent support/documentation, it looks like my decision was made for me: I'll hold off on the 4th axis, and buy a laser engraver that has the 4th axis, and buy a used lathe on Kijiji and do my turning projects old-school, and then bring them over onto the laser engravers 4th axis. Allan |
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johnb
Full Member
New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
Posts: 326
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Post by johnb on Feb 2, 2019 10:03:26 GMT -5
I have a really great idea...
Unless it involves some government policy (like tariffs) affecting the prices of our equipment, can we PLEEEEEEEZE leave politics off this board?
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Post by Axiom Tool Group on Feb 5, 2019 15:18:05 GMT -5
Honestly, we hear from the two extremes....with most people very happy with the manual and then others that don't.
However the MAIN machine manual very clearly walks through how to HOME the machine, set the ORIGIN for both XY and Z axes and select the file through the RUN menu to operate that said file.
When you add a rotary kit, the largest hurdle is the design side of things....for which we can't provide a manual. There are videos and classes both available to guide users through that...
The 4th Axis manual itself, like all of our documentation...is always evolving and with updated information. While its true that this manual largely just covers the installation of the rotary kit to the machine....job setup will not be much different than normal.
You will jog the machine to the desired ORIGIN location and use the XY-0 to program...the Z axis, is either manually set from the top of the material or touched off using the tool-set device (Puck) off the aluminum table...just like the main manual illustrates with the only real change being that you use an artificial offset to place that Z-0 location in line with the center axis of the material.
Safeties and things to look out for are things that get updated from time to time as more is learned, and tricks for operations are found.
Truthfully, the rotary kit is a complicated accessory...for a number of reasons. While the setup is very similar, the designs are more complicated and strange little features can develop do to how these designs are wrapped around an axis.
Which is why our classes are recommended to aid in learning to more complicated parts such as the software from Vectric experts....and to give users an opportunity to gain some insight on the rotary operation from our team.
We do hope that these manuals continue to evolve....in fact, with the release of the new i2R machines, ALL the manuals are getting some updates.
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(knocking on wood right now 
