kev
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Post by kev on Feb 10, 2018 15:49:03 GMT -5
Hello all. Thanks for your help in advance. We are looking for a small CNC machine to do some relatively light-duty aluminum milling. (Repeatedly drilling about a dozen holes and three 1" slots in 1/8" 6061 aluminum.) The cuts have to be fairly precise, and we will only need to do this about 15 times per month. The Axiom AR6 seems like it will suit our needs. I spoke with Chad at Axiom, and he also thought it would work well for us, as long as we used the right flute, feeds and speeds.
I asked Chad about the software we'd need to model our parts and get the machine to cut everything, and he recommended Vcarve Pro, which Axiom sells. I'm fairly familiar with Fusion 360, and so is the other person who will be operating the machine. Chad said there might be some work-arounds to get Fusion 360 to work on an Axiom machine, but we didn't get too far into it. When I started looking into Vcarve Pro, I realized that it seems to be primarily woodworking software, which isn't surprising since Chad said the AR6 was primarily designed for woodworkers. Our machine will, in all liklihood, never cut any wood - just aluminum. Everyone online seems to like Vcarve Pro for woodworking on their Axiom, but I couldn't find anyone using Fusion 360 on an Axiom. Obviously, we don't want to spend $700.00 on woodworking software if we don't need to, especially since Fusion 360 seems to be more suitable for our needs, we already know how to use it and it's free.
My questions are: is anyone using Fusion 360 on an Axiom machine? If so, did you have to jump through any difficult technical hoops, or have you encountered any problems? Is there any reason Fusion 360 wouldn't work on an Axiom machine? Thanks again.
Kev
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Post by arsystems on Feb 10, 2018 17:25:20 GMT -5
I have primarily used Fusion360 for everything I've made over the last year. I got my AR6 setup about a week ago, I have run one test cut with it so far which was a 3d cut not a vcarve, and it worked as I hoped. I used the RS274 post processor which is loaded already in the Fusion database. I am about to run another cut tonight or tomorrow and hopefully that goes smoothly as well. Will update when I do so.
I was told prior to my purchase that "axiom customers have reported rs274 works with the machine" - so far so good.
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kev
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Post by kev on Feb 10, 2018 20:28:36 GMT -5
Thanks arsystems. I appreciate your quick response, and I'm eagerly waiting to hear about any successes or problems you encounter.
Kev
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 10:03:38 GMT -5
Fusion 360 has much better CAM than any of the Vectric products as they all have the same output generator and can't actually do even standard machining like Climb and Conventional control properly let alone features like spiraling bits by parameter or trochoidal tool paths. Plus, Fusion is a parametric solid modeler while even Aspire is really just a 2.5D drawing package that lacks true solid modeling and being parametric.
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Post by jeffhammond on Feb 12, 2018 15:43:34 GMT -5
I'm waiting on the delivery of my Axiom (AR16) so i haven't actually used an Axiom along with Fusion 360 yet..
over the past few weeks, i've trialed Vcarve (and Parallels-- i'm on Mac).. and all i can say is that is some outdated looking and acting software.
apparently, some people have problems with Fusion and Axiom but then again, some don't.. regardless, i'm going to use Fusion and figure out the kinks or get some Post Processor assistance because Vcarve is like going back in time 20+ years.. (even with simple things-- needing to mouse-click 'apply' after a curve edit.. that should all be happening live imo).
my main design software is Rhino and i'll most definitely continue using that for modeling.. i currently use (and pay for) Fusion for rendering due to it's cloud capabilities so i'm somewhat familiar with it already.. Rhino is better for modeling (imo) but if i didn't already know Rhino and had to do a Fusion vs VCarve/Aspire comparison, i'd most certainly go with Fusion.. again, it's much more modern and powerful.
idk, i hope more people get into using Fusion along with Axiom which i think will lead to better support between the two because, since i've now actually tried Vcarve for a few weeks, it's basically no longer an option for me.
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kev
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Post by kev on Feb 12, 2018 18:20:01 GMT -5
First, I really appreciate the responses to my questions. However, after some in-depth discussions and extensive research, we've decided that the most practical solution for us is to go with a Tormach CNC machine. Yes, it's going to cost more, but they're specifically designed to cut aluminium, which is all our machine is going to do. They also operate seemlessly with Fusion 360 - software that's just better suited for our needs than woodworking software.
I think the folks at Axiom have designed some really good machines, and we're pretty sure that the Axiom AR6 would do what we need it to do. We just couldn't get comfortable with the the idea of having to buy and learn expensive new software that wasn't well suited for our needs, and we didn't want to have to tinker with it, or try to figure out work-arounds. The software limitation wasn't the only issue, but it was a big part of our decision. I'm not bitter - just disappointed, because I like the AR6. I mention it only as constructive criticism, so if/when the folks at Axiom see this, they might consider enabling their systems to work better with other software. Thanks again for your help.
Kev
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 11:06:58 GMT -5
You mentioned you were looking at the AR6 which has a radically different work envelope compared to the Tormach. There is no reason you can't use Fusion with an Axiom but flood or mist coolant will be easier with the Tormach if it has the capacity for your projects.
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kev
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Post by kev on Feb 13, 2018 13:59:28 GMT -5
You're absolutely right fean. The narrower lateral work envelope of the Tormach was one of the things we discussed in-depth. I prefer the flatbed design of the AR6 over Tormach's vertical design, but the parts we'll be milling are small, and will fit in the Tormach. It will limit us, however, to smaller parts. Flood cooling won't be necessary for our 1/8" thick aluminum parts, but we do plan to use a Mist Buster to help with cooling and chip extraction.
Like I said, I like the AR6, and I believe the machine itself is capable of doing what we would need it to do. The trouble is, I just didn't get the warm fuzzies from the salesman at Rockler Woodworking, or from Chad at Axiom when I brought up the software issue. In fact, they both suggested that we not use Fusion 360, and instead use Vcarve Pro. Maybe that's because they make money selling Vcarve, but nothing from Fusion 360, or maybe it's because Fusion 360 really doesn't play well with Axiom machines... I don't know - that's why I'm here. If it's only about sales, I think that's very short sighted, and I also think it could end up costing them a lot more than the cost of Vcarve. Software is a hugely important component of CNC machining, and I think people with similar needs as ours, may opt to buy different machines.
I do know that several "seemingly knowledgeable" people, who already have Axiom machines, have posted on other blogs and forums about the lack of Fusion 360 support from Axiom, but once again, is that because Axiom doesn't want to support software they didn't sell, or...? On the surface, that seems understandable, but Fusion 360 is an industry standard software, used by people and businesses all over the world. I would think Axiom would want their machines to be as compatible with it as possible. I'm neither a computer whiz nor a CNC expert, but we're going to need our machine to work reliably, without having to jump through a lot of software hoops. Woodworking software just doesn't seem like the answer to our needs. I don't know... maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, we're going to purchase a machine in three weeks. I will give it some additional thought. I REALLY appreciate everyone's insight and help, and I hope to hear from arsystems very soon about any Fusion 360 issues.
Kev
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Post by smokediver576 on Feb 13, 2018 16:26:39 GMT -5
Hey Kev,
I purchased the AR8 about 6 months or so ago and had the same concerns/observations reference the Fusion 360 thing that you've had. I was really surprised at why they would not be jumping though all sorts of hoops to get the post processor worked out better for the Autorich controller. I kept getting referred back to Autodesk saying that the post processor was their issue.
So some background. I was one of the Fusion 360 early adopters and came to Fusion 360 from Solid Works. Yes, there has been a ton of learning curves / updating / sleepless nights and yes, Autodesk still has a way to go but when you consider that my license is $300 per year for EVERYTHING from mill to lathe to laser to 3D printer I'd say you cannot beat it. Another thing is that I actually have a Tormach PCNC 1100 mill and a Tormach Slant Pro lathe. For me the AR8 was to make bucks out of MDF for our vacuum forming projects. Wanted to keep the dust out of the mill (had a spindle issue with that prior to purchasing the AR8). You CAN run Fusion with the Axiom - it will require some tweaking, adjusting and one hell of a learning curve but it can be done.
Now, on to your original question..... IMO, the Axiom is not a candidate for machining aluminum. Engraving yes, doing adaptive 3D milling, absolutely not. First and fore most, the Axiom motors do not have the power to push say a 1/4" end mill in 6061 aluminum unless your are cutting super shallow depth of cut + width of cut. Another is the control. With Tormach's PathPilot, you have so many controls at your finger tips via slide bars and things like a pendant. I can control everything right there, from feeds to RPM to velocity as well as "see" it visually on the screen. Another thing is you can set up your RPM in Fusion as well as your tools and do rapid changes vs having to undo the collet, put a new tool in, change the Z height etc.
In all fairness, these two machines should not be compared to each other. They do totally different things (hence the reason I purchased one). For the most part I've been happy with my AR8. Pro's - one of the best built small factor machines I've ever purchased. Technical support has always responded quickly to my questions (thanks Chad!!!). Con's - the controller sucks and needs to be moved over to something like Linux CNC or something. Second, the motors - for such a beast of a frame - the NEMA 23 motors seem to be weak in my opinion and prevent the machine from being able to rapid around the table (which you kind of need with a 24" x 48" machine).
All in all - the Axiom is the best in this class of CNC routers for wood, plastic and metal engraving. If one thinks about it for those purposes then they will be quite pleased.
Andrew (Instagram) coolcncstuff_
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Post by arsystems on Feb 13, 2018 17:33:44 GMT -5
Hey Kev, I purchased the AR8 about 6 months or so ago and had the same concerns/observations reference the Fusion 360 thing that you've had. I was really surprised at why they would not be jumping though all sorts of hoops to get the post processor worked out better for the Autorich controller. I kept getting referred back to Autodesk saying that the post processor was their issue. So some background. I was one of the Fusion 360 early adopters and came to Fusion 360 from Solid Works. Yes, there has been a ton of learning curves / updating / sleepless nights and yes, Autodesk still has a way to go but when you consider that my license is $300 per year for EVERYTHING from mill to lathe to laser to 3D printer I'd say you cannot beat it. Another thing is that I actually have a Tormach PCNC 1100 mill and a Tormach Slant Pro lathe. For me the AR8 was to make bucks out of MDF for our vacuum forming projects. Wanted to keep the dust out of the mill (had a spindle issue with that prior to purchasing the AR8). You CAN run Fusion with the Axiom - it will require some tweaking, adjusting and one hell of a learning curve but it can be done. Now, on to your original question..... IMO, the Axiom is not a candidate for machining aluminum. Engraving yes, doing adaptive 3D milling, absolutely not. First and fore most, the Axiom motors do not have the power to push say a 1/4" end mill in 6061 aluminum unless your are cutting super shallow depth of cut + width of cut. Another is the control. With Tormach's PathPilot, you have so many controls at your finger tips via slide bars and things like a pendant. I can control everything right there, from feeds to RPM to velocity as well as "see" it visually on the screen. Another thing is you can set up your RPM in Fusion as well as your tools and do rapid changes vs having to undo the collet, put a new tool in, change the Z height etc. In all fairness, these two machines should not be compared to each other. They do totally different things (hence the reason I purchased one). For the most part I've been happy with my AR8. Pro's - one of the best built small factor machines I've ever purchased. Technical support has always responded quickly to my questions (thanks Chad!!!). Con's - the controller sucks and needs to be moved over to something like Linux CNC or something. Second, the motors - for such a beast of a frame - the NEMA 23 motors seem to be weak in my opinion and prevent the machine from being able to rapid around the table (which you kind of need with a 24" x 48" machine). All in all - the Axiom is the best in this class of CNC routers for wood, plastic and metal engraving. If one thinks about it for those purposes then they will be quite pleased. Andrew (Instagram) coolcncstuff_ have you had success running cuts from fusion on the axiom? I wish there was a way we could get some people together and make this happen, seems pretty lame that someone at Axiom can't sit down and work on this real quick.
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Post by jeffhammond on Feb 13, 2018 19:18:02 GMT -5
[...]about the lack of Fusion 360 support from Axiom, but once again, is that because Axiom doesn't want to support software they didn't sell, or...? On the surface, that seems understandable, but Fusion 360 is an industry standard software, used by people and businesses all over the world. I would think Axiom would want their machines to be as compatible with it as possible. from what i gather, Axiom isn't anti-Fusion due to them selling VCarve.. or, they would probably like to have an Axiom specific post processor on this list: cam.autodesk.com/posts/I think the main problem is that the people at Axiom aren't coders and if they were, there would almost certainly be an Axiom p.p. for Fusion. Autodesk are the coders.. I mean, they write and maintain the software we're talking about and ultimately, they're probably the best people to write the processor.. what seems to be missing (at least how i see it currently) is a dialog between Axiom and Autodesk.. from what i gather, there was one communication between the two companies which didn't result in a post processor being written and that was that.. we're now left with an explanation "Autodesk should make the post but they think we (Axiom) should provide it".. I wish there was a way to get these two companies involved in some sort of fresh dialog and/or a collaboration of sorts.. I'm pretty sure Autodesk will write the post provided the people at Axiom are heavily involved in providing info, testing the code, giving feedback etc. (or maybe it would be helpful for Axiom to send a machine to Autodesk??) because trying to do this as a random user is proving to be impossible.. there are a number of threads at Autodesk forums where users have started topics regarding all this only for the thread to fizzle out with no actual conclusion or official post being made.. the company (Axiom) reps need to get involved (imo).. ---------------------- [edit] just for example.. (and these are just guesses).. if you look at the Laguna post processor available at the link above, it starts off like: .. as in, Autodesk wrote it as it has them listed for Copyright.. I don't believe Autodesk just wrote that out of nowhere.. Laguna likely prodded Autodesk into doing it..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 10:32:09 GMT -5
Kev, Many aluminum types machine well and I would assume you're going to use them. With that said, you usually don't need flood coolant and mist coolant is adequate not so much for cooling but because it clears chips so they aren't recut and also the lubricant helps prevent built-up edge witch is the most important thing for a nice finish and longer tool life. If you're not going to use a mister and do things manually, denatured alcohol doesn't make a mess, is an easy cleanup and works well.
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Post by smokediver576 on Feb 14, 2018 14:50:10 GMT -5
To those asking about my luck with Fusion 360 posting out to the router. Yes, I'm using Fusion for my posts. Have to jump through several hoops and wrap your head around some of the settings. Also, the Autorich controller does not like to use the high speed machine settings from Fusion without choking up a dust ball (means you have to set your fast speeds to 1500). But, it is working. I'll pull the post processor that I'm using when I get out to the shop and try and post it up here. One of the things I really hate is having to change the CAD file over to mm and then not forgetting to set it back or vise versa...
Agree 100% that Axiom should work with AutoDesk to make a bomb proof post for the Axiom router. Seems they would have more to gain than loose. Of course, to me the bigger issue is the freaking Autorich controller! At some point I'll convert mine over to Tormach PathPilot with a Mesa card once my warranty is over. Being stepper motors it should be pretty easy to do. I would love to tap into the VFD and have it control the RPM as well.
Later, Awall
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Post by jeffhammond on Feb 14, 2018 18:47:11 GMT -5
Yes, I'm using Fusion for my posts. Have to jump through several hoops and wrap your head around some of the settings. hey Awall.. are the 'hoops' you speak of workarounds you must do? or is it more about just needing to know the software? can't you just keep your model/cam environment in inches then, upon creating the post (via the 'Post Process' icon under 'Actions'), set it to millimeters there? or am i misunderstanding this export dialog? thanks Attachments:
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Post by smokediver576 on Feb 14, 2018 20:03:07 GMT -5
Hey Jeff,
The hoop jumping has more to do with making sure you don't do to fast this or that, considerations for acceleration and basically having to slow the machine way down to keep it from stalling when moving from one area to another in rapids mode (all axis). Also, just feel that the post processor is hacked together vs something that folks poured over to improve.
Thanks for the info on the post setting. I have totally missed this because it read "document units"..... Will definitely be putting that to use. Will have to remember to set it back for when I send stuff to the mill...
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Post by jeffhammond on Feb 14, 2018 20:45:05 GMT -5
Also, just feel that the post processor is hacked together vs something that folks poured over to improve. which post processor are you using?
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Post by smokediver576 on Feb 15, 2018 8:31:19 GMT -5
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Post by arsystems on Feb 15, 2018 23:54:08 GMT -5
I upped my acceleration and fast speed and it would not run properly.. I guess now I know why. How can we fix this!?
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Post by trung999 on Feb 16, 2018 2:41:16 GMT -5
It’s a shame really. Axiom is a good machine with industrial roots that can easily support more powerful software. When I bought the machine only low end of Vectrics were offered. They do offer the $1999 Vectric Aspire now. I bought the machine and gave a valiant effort to using Aspire. It’s user friendly, lots of on line tutorials, easy learning curve. I did a few projects with it. In the end I gave up. I needed a more powerful CAD engine. For simple designs I could still use it but it's tough to maintain proficiency in more than one CAD tool.
I went back to Rhino/MadCAM, steep learning curve but powerful. Luckily a forum member had already managed to get a MadCAM post processor for the Rich11 controller. All you need for the CAM engine inside Fusion 360 to work with Axiom is a post processor. The post is just a tiny 2KB text file that tells the CAM software how to translate the instructions into G codes in the format that the Axiom controller can understand. Info like do you need to start and end with %? What coordinate system to use (G54), are there line numbers (Yes), what unit does the controller expect (metric G21), what G-codes are supported, what are the speed limits (max mm/min) etc... All that adds up to a few dozen lines of text.
Fusion folks would never contact Axiom to provide a post processor for every controller Axiom offers. Instead Axiom can make available a sample of comprehensive G-codes output for controllers they offer so customers can get post-processors from CADCAM vendors of their choosing. And that I think Axiom does if you ask them.
In the case of the post processor I am using, the post was primarily written by a couple of guys on a MadCAM forum. Should not be much work for the Fusion guys. May be Fusion can even make a Fusion post from the MadCAM post I have. If so I can upload.
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Post by jeffhammond on Feb 17, 2018 10:35:19 GMT -5
I upped my acceleration and fast speed and it would not run properly.. I guess now I know why. How can we fix this!? wait, why? can you elaborate on what the problem is? have you pinpointed the issue to being the post processor?
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kev
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Post by kev on Feb 18, 2018 14:05:53 GMT -5
Well, it makes me as a novice feel better knowing that more more experienced CNCrs are also trying to get these issues resolved. (Misery loves company) I think it just makes more sense for us to go with the Tormach. Thank you all very much for your guidance.
Kev
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Post by arsystems on Feb 18, 2018 17:27:28 GMT -5
I upped my acceleration and fast speed and it would not run properly.. I guess now I know why. How can we fix this!? wait, why? can you elaborate on what the problem is? have you pinpointed the issue to being the post processor? I am not confident to say 100% that it is because of the post processor, but I only upped the acceleration a tiny bit and tried to run a cut loaded onto a thumb drive. It would jump the z axis and get misaligned... I then reset it to machine defaults and ran the same cut with no issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 10:47:48 GMT -5
These machines are run open loop, that is, the actual position is not measured and used in a feedback loop. So if you specify too much acceleration or speed you will introduce errors because of missed steps. Stepper motors have less torque as their speed goes up so slower is more accurate. You have to balance that with requirements for the cutting tools, that is always the tradeoff as carbide cutters always exceed the capabilities of these machines and wood because they are intended for industrial machines to cut hard metals.
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Post by arsystems on Feb 19, 2018 15:11:14 GMT -5
I am running what I consider to be very slow feeds and speeds.. .25" doc, 16.5k rpm, 185 ipm.. cutting hdpe with a carbide cutter. Machine is not stressed at all.
I thought everything was going well until I just ran a cut and the machine stalled for a second and then somehow got misaligned and plunged into my material and ruined the whole thing. That sucked. Who can I pay to create a clean working post processor!!!
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Post by arsystems on Feb 19, 2018 17:48:05 GMT -5
and it just happened for the second time.. again.. running very conservative feeds and speeds.. it gets jammed up.. loses it's position and ruins the cut... controller and manufacturer speed settings are all set to default.
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Post by stevem on Feb 19, 2018 19:35:43 GMT -5
At 185 ipm, you are only 15 ipm under the max speed the machine can cut at. I am almost positive that these machines have a max cut speed of 200 ipm. Not an expert, but I think you're trying to cut too fast.
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Post by arsystems on Feb 19, 2018 20:02:56 GMT -5
At 185 ipm, you are only 15 ipm under the max speed the machine can cut at. I am almost positive that these machines have a max cut speed of 200 ipm. Not an expert, but I think you're trying to cut too fast. They have a "max" cut speed of 200 ipm.. I set this cut at 185, which is under... how would that be too fast? I'm not positive, but I believe the machine is capable of cutting way faster than 200 ipm, they just recommend that you don't. Either way, both times when the machine stalled and reengaged in the wrong direction, the bit was not cutting any material. When it is cutting correctly, it cuts like butter. Both times it screwed up were during a non cutting tool path while moving from cut to cut, actually both while during an up Z movement.
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Post by arsystems on Feb 20, 2018 15:35:27 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 10:38:08 GMT -5
Arsystems, 185 ipm is far from conservative. Also, the 200 ipm Axiom suggests as a maximum is not an absolute limit but what they suggest for some cuts in some materials where you won't lose steps like you are doing. Many owners run without problems at 150 ipm. But realistically the load on the machine and accuracy change with speed. Higher speeds means more load and less accuracy as well as less torque from the stepper motors. Additionally, the Z-axis has a higher load in the up direction than the down direction because of gravity while X and Y the load is independent of direction. There have been posts in other topics about a setting in the controller that has caused a problem with losing Z steps when going up but you might just set a lower Plunge value, say 60 to 100 ipm, it won't affect your cut time that much and may be more appropriate for your bit as well since they aren't normally designed for vertical cutting as fast as their horizontal cutting.
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Post by arsystems on Feb 26, 2018 13:01:45 GMT -5
I have been playing with the speeds a little, haven't messed with the fast speed again. But if advertised is 200 and cutting 185.. there shouldn't be any problems... right?
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