Side business op Noob.

[vertigo01]

As there is no introduction area, I figured this as good a place as any to post.  Mods please move to appropriate forum if need be.

A bit about myself.
I have been programming for, repairing, managing and operating Waterjets for the past 19 years. For a small family owned/operated company.

Having contemplated setting up my own part time home based business for quite some time now and am finally in a predicament where I can afford to purchase the Axiom Pro8.

My main focus will be on acrylic, laminated plastics, wood and to a lesser extent thin alum.

If I may ask the following questions.
1. How are CNC routing jobs bid? I.E. by the minute, hour.

2. How large a learning curve would it be to learn the Aspire pro drafting software?
I am quite proficient in Autocad 2D  drafting but have little to no experience with the 3D side of CNC routing.

3. Is it better to go with a bigger table of more practucle to stay with a medium/smaller table and upgrade should the need arise?

The above having been said. It is not my intention to quit my current job but to supplement my income in my off time. As well as offer a more efficient way to provide our current customer base, the specialty plastic parts that they require.

Waterjets are wonderful but like anything they have their limitations.

Thanks in advance.
Pat

[traindriver]

Welcome! Sounds like you are about where I was a couple of years ago. I have had my machine over two years, and I still haven't gotten to all the different types of things it will do.

1. I've talked with a few people who do custom stuff, and they charge by the square inch of the project. You might prowl around on Etsy and see what something of similar size/complexity goes for. The other two questions, I can do much better.

2. Your AutoCAD skills won't necessarily help or hinder you learning Aspire. There are not as many drawing tools in Vectric software as there are in CAD, but you can still do a lot with what there is. I use VCarve Pro, which is one step down from Aspire, and although I am proficient at AutoCAD, it hasn't helped me at all. For V-carving signs, there isn't a lot of drafting, aside from creating custom shapes for the plaque. When I do 3d carving, I buy models from Vectric's DesignandMake website (there are a few others as well) and from what I've read, a lot of those that aren't from Vectric are drawn in Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw (there are tutorials on how to do this if you do a little searching). Also, if you were familiar with 3D modeling software, such as ProE, SolidWorks or ACAD Inventor, that wouldn't help you either, because those platforms are made to help you design something, whereas for the router, you are more drawing it than designing it. If you have access to AutoCAD, you can import DXF files into Vectric software and go from there. The designs I've seen for electric guitar bodies, for example, look like they would be much easier to design in CAD software than Vectric, but that's probably just because I could do it quicker with all the CAD drawing tools.

3. After 10 years of contemplating a CNC purchase, I stumbled on Axiom, and it looked like the best built machine for the money. I started out convincing myself that I would be okay just with a 24 x 24" table and router vs. spindle. After talking with an Axiom rep, I decided on a water cooled spindle (some 3d jobs take a long time - my longest is 30 straight hours - and would probably burn up a router, since it's not made for continuous use like that). Once I got over that bit of sticker shock, I realized that for only $500 more, I could get 50% more machine space, and for only $1000 more, I could get double the machine space. My reasoning is that I would kick myself if I spent the money on the spindle, developed enough business to warrant buying another machine and needed to shell out $5500 on another 24" x 24" (2 years ago price) when I could have gotten the same capability for $1k. Did I have the garage space? No. It dominated my garage and the other woodworking tools had to get rolled outside to play. Am I glad I sprung for the extra space? Yes. While I mostly work within a 24" x 24" window, I've had paying jobs that required much larger. I know 2 spindles make more production than one, but I planned to run the machine at night while I was asleep and during the day while I was at work. Job changed, moved to new factory, clientele changed, so I mostly play now, but it's starting to make money again.

This was my journey. Hope it helps with your decision.

[branson]

I am full time military and only use my CBC for personal/side business stuff.

I usually do more of the 3D work than the carve signs. I think 3D work has a bit of a learning curve, and I do use aspire for most of my stuff because it allows me to manipulate the 3D models more than vcarve pro did, but if I were you I would start with vcarve pro and move up if you find the need later.

I went with the 24x48 machine because I like to do batch jobs when I make things. Just like like train diver, I usually let the machine run overnight for its 8ish hour cuts.

I price everything that comes out of my shop at $30 dollars and hour, this includes machine hours. Then I usually add the material cost on top of it. Most signs I make that are just vcarve and 2d run about $50, while most of my 3D work runs closer to 100. I consider myself on the cheap end though.

I usually am able to pull in around 2k a month just tinkering in the garage on custom projects for people, but it didn’t start out that way. Expect to do things wrong in the beginning and learn from it. If you go through the forums you will see we all have had plenty of mistakes.

Good luck!

[aluomala]

I've been doing CNC woodcarving for about 4 years (with a 6 month hiatus when I almost sliced off a few fingers with my table saw, but that's another story....). I started with a DIY-kit from ShapeOko2/Inventables. I went with 1000mm x 1000mm (about 24" x 24" work space). HUGE learning curve (having to figure out wiring, tapping aluminum for screws, learning all the free/open-source software. I bought a PirahnaXL from NWA about 2 years ago, which was a mistake since their support is abysmal.

I have been doing my woodwork as a hobby, but I have decided to do it as a business out of my garage. I'm retired from Canadian military and my focus is on unit cap badges, 3D scenes, retirement/posting plaques, so mostly smallish (~12" in size) 3D work with some v-carving. I was really torn about wanting to go with the AR8Pro, but finally opted to go with the AR4Pro. My reasoning for the smaller size is that most of my projects will be well within the 24" x 24" window (based on what I had done previously), and if I want to go longer, one can always tile the project and do it in steps. My old ShapeOko2 (SO2) doesn't have the stamina or accuracy to do that (I had 2 projects that I tiled, and only real success with one of them). The increased size/footprint was another concern, so it came down to those 2 factors. After reading Branson's post and the concept of batch cuts (a whole bunch of blanks, or one large piece of wood with nested projects, and the ability to let the machine run over night (I would never in a million years allow my SO2 to run unattended (it has a mind of it's own sometimes especially when stepper motors overheated (very common on 3+ hour jobs)) and I don't think I'd trust my PirahnaXL overnight (it has a Bosch Colt router)) has me somewhat kicking myself for thinking so "small". I wouldn't be comfortable doing those types of large jobs overnight for a while, but the concept of cutting multiple projects never occurred to me (not to that scale anyway). If you price your shop time at $30/hr, for example, you would be making $240 while you sleep: genius!

I am going to try to maximize my output by doing my large work on my AR4Pro and smaller work (12" x 12" max) on Pirahna. I purchased a bunch of accesories (3000mw laser kit (junk), diamond drag bit (great for acrylic), vinyl cutter, pen holder) for the Pirahna, so I can definitely multi-task while waiting on the Axiom (besides doing the sanding/finishing of another project, which is what I tend to do while the SO2 or Pirahna is running, just so I'm in the same area if the machine craps the bed.

I'm toying with the idea of having a baby-monitor type of setup for my machine(s) so I can be elsewhere, and the possibility of an app-controlled kill-switch that I can activate remotely from my phone (along with a web-cam streaming to my phone)) would give me a bit of peace of mind if I'm gone and not worried about the house burning down.

As for Aspire, I would highly recommend going to their resources web page and follow along with their tutorials. I made the mistake of cherry-picking ones based on what I needed to learn at that moment, and I never did learn some of the basics, best-practices, etc that they cover in the more elementary tutorials. You can actually make some very nice custom pieces in a hurry using Aspire, since they give you a lot of free clipart to play around with, and if you're good with your Google-fu, you can find a lot of free STL files on the 'net. "Free" doesn't always equate with "good", so sometimes it's easier/better to buy clipart (vector and/or 3D) from the various sites out there (DesignAndMake has stuff specifically created for Aspire at quite reasonable prices).

Allan

[gerry]

Dec 17, 2017 22:22:16 GMT -5 aluomala said:

I'm toying with the idea of having a baby-monitor type of setup for my machine(s) so I can be elsewhere, and the possibility of an app-controlled kill-switch that I can activate remotely from my phone (along with a web-cam streaming to my phone)) would give me a bit of peace of mind if I'm gone and not worried about the house burning down.

Allan

Instead of a baby-monitor, I made an articulated stand for one of my old cell phones. It old phone doesn't have to be able to be a phone, only run the camera and get on wifi. I put a remote controlled camera app (free) on the phone. I can now sit on my desktop and see AND LISTEN to my CNC via my browser. Free is about as cheap as it gets. The old phone was just sitting in a drawer.

[vertigo01]

Thanks for the info, it truely is enlightening.

My main concern is that, I am still unsure as to how a project is bid.
For example, with waterjet, our cutting time is bid by the minute. Whereby the alloy, thickness and edge quality desired is what determins the cut time + material costof course.
The consumables which are a 99% constant ( nozzle tip, garnet, seals, orifice, Etc. Etc.) are factored into the bid price. Hiwever with the CNC riuting aspect there are differing variables.
Are the differing variables just averaged into the bjd equation?

Also for those with single machines, what size shop do you have?
Or how much room around the machine do you keep as a clutter free and safe work area?

I plan on having a 14'x 24'shed installed away from the house. As I feel this will eliminate some of the noise, as well as help to keep things orderly and clean.

[Bob]

Jerry,
I'm real interested in how you did this:
Instead of a baby-monitor, I made an articulated stand for one of my old cell phones. It old phone doesn't have to be able to be a phone, only run the camera and get on wifi. I put a remote controlled camera app (free) on the phone. I can now sit on my desktop and see AND LISTEN to my CNC via my browser. Free is about as cheap as it gets. The old phone was just sitting in a drawer.

Thank you,
Bob

[gerry]

Dec 18, 2017 10:37:13 GMT -5 Bob said:

Jerry,
I'm real interested in how you did this:
Instead of a baby-monitor, I made an articulated stand for one of my old cell phones. It old phone doesn't have to be able to be a phone, only run the camera and get on wifi. I put a remote controlled camera app (free) on the phone. I can now sit on my desktop and see AND LISTEN to my CNC via my browser. Free is about as cheap as it gets. The old phone was just sitting in a drawer.

Thank you,
Bob

What part do you need more info on? The stand, wifi app, or ??

[aluomala]

Dec 18, 2017 10:05:23 GMT -5 vertigo01 said:

...

My main concern is that, I am still unsure as to how a project is bid.

I have been pestering a few people on this exact thing, and I think the best advice that I have heard is to look at Etsy, Pinterest (usually there will be a link somewhere to the original creator of the item), and other similar sites  and determine if the product being sold is similar to what you want to create. If it is custom at all (name, dates, etc) I think it is reasonable to add that to the cost since it becomes unique(ish) and one of a kind (vs a generic product that might churned out in a factory). I saw that user Branson charges $30 per hour (including machining time) and in my mind (I'm a hobbyist venturing into the full-time home-based market) that seems reasonable. One piece of advice that I read somewhere (likely a CNC or woodworking forum) is NOT to try to sell your products at things like flea markets, since people want things as cheaply as possible there (read as: bottom feeders). You might get some business there based on what you created (the people would like you to do future custom work for them) but not what you have on display.

Another post I read (will try to link to it if I can, as it had a lot of useful ideas) said that if it is something custom, ANY time you spend on it (researching internet, scratching your head, working in CAD/CAM, sanding, etc) should be factored in and you should be paid for that. I think that can be tempered with some reality, in that if it takes you 6 hours to create the file, whereas a "pro" could do it in 15 minutes (initial learning curve, re-using existing files that are similar, etc), you have to accept that 5 of those hours should be "pro bono" and chalked up as a learning experience and not charged to the customer. Because, if your price quote comes in at 2-3 times that of an established business (due to you being a beginner and taking far longer than the pro), I doubt you would be getting any repeat customers. I have also read that many pro's HATE the weekenders (hobbyists) that undercut them simply because they don't have the overhead of a proper business and if the hobbyist has another source of income (day job), they can afford to price well below the established business. Not sure that I can feel the pain (I'm a retired guy with a government pension and a wife that works full-time), because the reality is that the established businesses aren't likely going to lost that much business to hobbyists/small business since that groups production capability is far smaller, and the average person going to the hobbyist/small business, would never go to the established business simply because whatever they want isn't economically feasible (i.e the big business would charge way too much). My target audience (serving and retired military guys) would probably use me because 1) they know me and want to support my business venture, 2) there are only a few people out there that are doing what I am doing (usually retired veterans) and 3) I will be charging a reasonable amount of money because of what I mentioned previously (I have a pension to fall back on; I am working out of my garage and have small overhead costs; I am just starting out, and there will likely be delays on delivery and some small quality control issues because I am fairly new and I don't have a commercial workspace with all the fancy tools). So I am really serving a small niche market, but I know that and adjust accordingly.

Sorry for the verbosity, but sometimes I like to justify (to myself) that my business venture is going to be successful, so I like to "talk it out" with forums, friends, etc. Basically come up with a business model to make sure that I can actually make some money at this thing.

Allan

...

I

[aluomala]

The cell phone idea (as a monitoring device for machines) is pretty good. I have an old iPhone4 that I was using as a remote for my Sonos sound system and extra remote for my AppleTV, but would work aces for the web-cam type of thing. Having constant power (i.e charging cable) would be the only issue that I can see. I had visions of this type of setup as a rear view camera for my RV (to keep an eye on my side-by-side trailer which is narrower than my RV) but the power to the phone would be an issue as well as range (35' trailer) to my phone in my cab.

[vertigo01]

Thanks for your insight Allan.
Although I am not retired, I do have a day job that I can count on to help keep overhead low (material sourcing and pricing) as well as security in the fact that I have a stable income.

That said, having talked with several machine shops in my area, as well as the company I am currently working for. In which they are willing to throw the dog a bone so to speak. The material will mostly be .032-.1875 garolite and small carbon fiber panels. Of which the quantity won't be all that much but it will be something.

All in an effort to help me get started, as well as open up some machine space for jobs that are a bit more lucrative for them.

I, like yourself am working on a plan to keep the machine running but not so much so, that it becomes just another humm drumm 9 to 5 where creativity takes a back seat to productivity.

Pat

[aluomala]

Dec 18, 2017 16:05:46 GMT -5 vertigo01 said:

...

I, like yourself am working on a plan to keep the machine running but not so much so, that it becomes just another humm drumm 9 to 5 where creativity takes a back seat to productivity.
....

Pat...
I don't want this to be a deadline-driven nerve wracking enterprise either (by running jobs at night or for 20-30 hours straight), but after sitting and watching my old machine do it's thing for 3 or 4 hours and praying that it won't crap out (due to stepper motors overheating for example), or just having to babysit it, you definitely feel like there has to be a better way to get things done, and it sounds like a pro model like the Axiom pro series is the ticket. Being able to do 3 or 4 (or many more depending on complexity) at night sounds WAY better than the way it is for me currently (having to babysit my machines), and during the work day that time that the machine is running and I don't have other things to do concurrently (like sanding or finishing pieces that I have already put through my machine(s)) I can be doing the computer work (i.e creativity) for new projects. It is frustrating to have 3 or 4 good ideas in your head (or already created on the computer) but you have to do them one at a time (due to crappy machines), one finds oneself in the "analysis paralysis" mode: which project do I cut next??? And then things never get done. It's happened a few times to me, where I couldn't commit to something for fear of my machine not doing what I wanted, and then doing something "lesser" because it shouldn't crash but does, due to faulty limit switches (another issue on my DIY machine) that if are off by even a few millimeters, it will throw off everything (ruined many projects by trying to run multiple finishing passes (reduce sanding work) and then the x0 y0 is off by a tiny bit, and ruins 4 or 5 (or more) hours of work. I've had more than a few CNC-induced fits of rage in my shop.....

One thing I am trying to avoid in my projects is to avoid doing the same thing more than 2 or 3 times in a row (easier said than done if somebody throws enough money at you, or you just need to pay the bills). Having a fairly large inventory of ideas or files should remedy this, but sometimes people like what they see and want exactly what they saw (on your website for example). I have the luxury of not having to take every job thrown at me, but I don't know how long that will last.

Allan

[Bob]

Dec 18, 2017 11:52:36 GMT -5 gerry said:

Dec 18, 2017 10:37:13 GMT -5 Bob said:

Jerry,
I'm real interested in how you did this:
Instead of a baby-monitor, I made an articulated stand for one of my old cell phones. It old phone doesn't have to be able to be a phone, only run the camera and get on wifi. I put a remote controlled camera app (free) on the phone. I can now sit on my desktop and see AND LISTEN to my CNC via my browser. Free is about as cheap as it gets. The old phone was just sitting in a drawer.

Thank you,
Bob

What part do you need more info on? The stand, wifi app, or ??

Jerry, I'm just interested in the wifi and remote control app. I appreciate any information you can share on how to do this.Bob

[gerry]

Dec 21, 2017 10:35:57 GMT -5 Bob said:

Dec 18, 2017 11:52:36 GMT -5 gerry said:

What part do you need more info on? The stand, wifi app, or ??

Jerry, I'm just interested in the wifi and remote control app. I appreciate any information you can share on how to do this.Bob

My house wifi extends into the garage where my CNC lives. All of my old phones are Android. There are lots of apps you can load onto your phone to turn it into a wifi controlled camera, with sound control and zoom. Search for "wifi camera". You can download the app onto your phone via wifi, so it doesn't have to be an active phone. I just place the phone off to the side where it can see the spindle. I plug the phone into a wall charger for long carves. You can now view the phone through your browser with something like "http://192.168.1.254:8080/" (the address of your phone on wifi).

Here's the crv file of my holder. make it to fit your phone. Remember, the camera is on the back, but you still need to see part of the screen to set it up.

Tilting Phone Holder.zip (106.08 KB)

[Bob]

Thank you Gerry,
Excellent information! My wife upgraded to an new phone. I then inherited her old one. I never realized that a non-activated smart phone (I use a flip phone.) is a dinky little computer. This opens all sorts possibilities.
Now I need to find the address of my little computer.
Thank you,
Bob

[gerry]

When you start the wifi camera app, most apps will tell you what address it's on.

[jimpa]

I'm going to try the webcam app today on an inexpensive Samsung tablet that I have hanging around in anticipation of using it or similar to monitor the Axiom setup I believe I'll be acquiring in the "recent future". Works fine in the house...I just need to check it on the node in my shop building relative to performance.

[asw01]

Dec 18, 2017 2:33:02 GMT -5 gerry said:

Dec 17, 2017 22:22:16 GMT -5 aluomala said:

I'm toying with the idea of having a baby-monitor type of setup for my machine(s) so I can be elsewhere, and the possibility of an app-controlled kill-switch that I can activate remotely from my phone (along with a web-cam streaming to my phone)) would give me a bit of peace of mind if I'm gone and not worried about the house burning down.

Allan

Instead of a baby-monitor, I made an articulated stand for one of my old cell phones. It old phone doesn't have to be able to be a phone, only run the camera and get on wifi. I put a remote controlled camera app (free) on the phone. I can now sit on my desktop and see AND LISTEN to my CNC via my browser. Free is about as cheap as it gets. The old phone was just sitting in a drawer.

I love this idea! I have an iPhone 4 laying around.... Too cool!

I will have this up soon.    And thanks for the CRV!

[branson]

Dec 18, 2017 10:05:23 GMT -5 vertigo01 said:

Thanks for the info, it truely is enlightening.

My main concern is that, I am still unsure as to how a project is bid.
For example, with waterjet, our cutting time is bid by the minute. Whereby the alloy, thickness and edge quality desired is what determins the cut time + material costof course.
The consumables which are a 99% constant ( nozzle tip, garnet, seals, orifice, Etc. Etc.) are factored into the bid price. Hiwever with the CNC riuting aspect there are differing variables.
Are the differing variables just averaged into the bjd equation?

Also for those with single machines, what size shop do you have?
Or how much room around the machine do you keep as a clutter free and safe work area?

I plan on having a 14'x 24'shed installed away from the house. As I feel this will eliminate some of the noise, as well as help to keep things orderly and clean.

My shop is just a two car garage and it seems to work fine for the AR-8. As far as pricing I always bid by the hour and don’t factor anything else in. That being said if somebody wants something made out of walnut I’ll charge them separate for the wood. I absorb the cost of my bits into that $30 an hour price since they last a while. While this isn’t very precise it works for me as a good rule of thumb for the side hobby.
I should include that my prices will vary depending on what has to be done. We sell these signs for $25 and they only take a few mins to make...after you get a feel for the market you can vary your prices depending on the demand.