|
|
Post by nlalston on Aug 30, 2023 0:07:17 GMT -5
Hello again, ya'll.
I STILL haven't gotten 'heeled up' on how to address (what I think is) excessive carving times, and hope someone can help. I've a simple Spiderman project that I have designed, as a gift, for a very nice young fella (9-10 yrs of age), who simply loves that Marvel super hero. I, personally, like what I came up with, and hope that he does, too. But, as simple as the project design is, its stated carving time seems to be (at nearly 3.5 hrs) much too long. I am only concerned about the carving time in event that someone else might desire to have the same sign (personalized differently, of course). Anything that rolls off my CNC is at a CTR (Carving Time Rate) of $60/hr. So, 208 minutes would translate into $208. I MUST have something set up WRONG.
Spiderman For Brayden.crv3d (931.5 KB)
|
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Aug 30, 2023 2:08:28 GMT -5
You didn't include any toolpaths, so rough guess. The vectors are not setup for a valid Vcarve, unless you do a flat depth cut. In this case use a clearing tool for the large areas. A pocket toolpath with only a 1/16" bit takes 34 minutes. Time estimates are not accurate unless you've set up your rapid rate, scale factor, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by aluomala on Aug 30, 2023 16:42:03 GMT -5
I ran it with a 60degree bit, with a 1/8" end mill to do clearance. 150IPM feedrate/90IPM plunge for both tools, and I ended up at a time of ~17 minutes. I have the AR8+Pro.
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by nlalston on Sept 1, 2023 12:27:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by gerry on Sept 1, 2023 14:59:54 GMT -5
Are your estimates normally accurate? I don't think so. I get a estimated time of 47 minutes carve time for my Axiom Ar8 Pro+. Time estimates are not accurate unless you've set up your rapid rate, scale factor in your Time Estimate. On my machine, I have it set to 'Rapid Rate: 125.0 inches/minute' and 'Scale Factor: 1.0'. That give me reasonable close numbers to actual runs. My actual run speeds are fairly conservative. |
|
|
|
Post by aluomala on Sept 1, 2023 15:14:30 GMT -5
I realized after my initial post that you are running an Iconic series machine, and I have an AR8+Pro, so my settings might be too much for your machine.
Your depth of cut (DOC) for the endmill (.03") is quite conservative. Most people use 1/2 of the diameter of the bit (for endmills and regular ball nose (not tapered)), so a setting of .0625 (one half of 1/8") would allow it to be done in 2 passes, vs 3 (your depth is .0938"). Also your feedrate/plunge seem to be very slow (again, not sure how fast the Iconic machines can go).
The v-bit, however is what it really slowing you down. I don't know what is "appropriate" for your machine, but 22IPM is pretty slow (painfully slow), and also your Rapid Z settings (in setup) could be reduced, because there are a lot of start/stop/movements with the v-carve, and it (Z gap clearance) seems to be unnecessarily high, and greatly adding to your times).
I don't do a lot of v-carving, so I generally run them at fairly conservative settings (ie I'm in no rush, and I can live with the machine running longer than really necessary), but if I had to speed things up, those are the things I would look at "tweaking" to get the time down.
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by grossmsj on Sept 2, 2023 7:28:07 GMT -5
You can't know where 'as fast as possible' is unless you know where too fast is. Spend an hour or two scaring yourself, wasting some scrap wood and maybe breaking an 1/8 inch end mill. You'll be surprised how capable your machine is and how much more productive you can be. If you are experimenting with engraving speeds there's nothing you can do to hurt your Axiom. You might find your hold down method is the rate-limiting step.
There's 'being safe' and then there is wasting your time, and they often are very close together. If you are charging people by the hour, it's probably even more important to understand performance boundaries as it's easy to justify how long things take and why. With laser engraving its standard practice to make a 'material test' with a piece of wood (or slate, etc.) to find the sweet spot that optimizes speed and laser power. That's always going to be way better than just trying what other people do. Finding that sweet spot for engraving will take systematic evaluation, but once you have it you are way ahead of the game going forward.
|
|
|
|
Post by aluomala on Sept 2, 2023 21:09:18 GMT -5
I am somewhat curious as to how you came up with the $60/hr figure (for your CTR (carve time rate)). I charge $250-$300CDN per sq/ft for 3D carvings. It took me quite a while to land at that point, but that factors in everything: wood (using "standard" wood types of maple, cherry and white oak), machining time, basic design time, finishing, and (hopefully) profit. Charging "professional" (shop) rates based on a hobby machine (in my mind, even the Pro Series machines are hobbyist machines (I have 2)) will likely cause you to price yourself out of your local market. If someone with even a slightly beefier machine (ARPro series vs the Iconic) can do the work in a fraction of the time, people will go to that business in a heartbeat, particularly if it's "clip art" stuff like the Spiderman thing (which you couldn't sell anyway) that anyone with a CNC router can produce. If you do "valued added" things to it, like fill it with epoxy, or wood inlays, that changes the playing field. That's only my opinion, and you might do quite well with those rates and your equipment, but I think it isn't realistic to charge those rates for products like this.
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by eagle55 on Sept 2, 2023 22:34:19 GMT -5
Just listening to the discussion and agree/realize its hard or impossible to get people to look at product made with good wood vs bamboo and other China related imports. But so I can understand what is being said… what is CDN?
|
|
|
|
Post by nlalston on Sept 3, 2023 3:41:54 GMT -5
I am somewhat curious as to how you came up with the $60/hr figure (for your CTR (carve time rate)). I charge $250-$300CDN per sq/ft for 3D carvings. It took me quite a while to land at that point, but that factors in everything: wood (using "standard" wood types of maple, cherry and white oak), machining time, basic design time, finishing, and (hopefully) profit. Charging "professional" (shop) rates based on a hobby machine (in my mind, even the Pro Series machines are hobbyist machines (I have 2)) will likely cause you to price yourself out of your local market. If someone with even a slightly beefier machine (ARPro series vs the Iconic) can do the work in a fraction of the time, people will go to that business in a heartbeat, particularly if it's "clip art" stuff like the Spiderman thing (which you couldn't sell anyway) that anyone with a CNC router can produce. If you do "valued added" things to it, like fill it with epoxy, or wood inlays, that changes the playing field. That's only my opinion, and you might do quite well with those rates and your equipment, but I think it isn't realistic to charge those rates for products like this. Allan Thanks for your input, Allen, and it needs to be mentioned that I have not been offended by anything that you've written. However, a bit of clarification is warranted. I do understand, now, that I had pushed myself a bit further up the ladder (regarding my pricing structure) than I should have. You see, I researched what some others had been charging, and placed myself in the middle bracket of what I had learned. All that I had factored in was that their offerings were CNC projects - and, being that I had a CNC, I thought that I could jump into the middle of the pool, as far as my product pricings were concerned. You are right, in that my machine is not one of those steroidal CNC behemoths - which is to say that I could not compete with the fraction of time that one of those could do with the same project that's done on mine (one of those might win the race before I got out of the gate, good). It makes sense that they could sell for cheaper, being that they could make it faster. I will make an adjustment in my pricing factor, as I don't want to over-charge anyone. At the same time, however, I do not intend to step beneath what I feel my time is worth. Before my accident took me out of the conventional workforce, I was making $30/hr at my job. That figure, is the lowest that I would bump down to. And, regarding your statement about my not being able to sell one of those 'spider man things', anyway - let me tell you that you were wrong. Yes, they are designed with clipart, and (yes) they are done on 3/16" composite surfaces (whiteboard). The one you've seen is my recent spiderman design, but I have also sold a number of 'gun warning' signs - of the same material, and size - for $90 to $100. I think it all boils down to testing the waters to see what WILL work, and what WON'T. Maybe I've just been lucky, so far - I really don't know. But I have taken most of what you wrote, to heart, and will see how that pans out for me. |
|
|
|
Post by aluomala on Sept 4, 2023 19:47:03 GMT -5
Just listening to the discussion and agree/realize its hard or impossible to get people to look at product made with good wood vs bamboo and other China related imports. But so I can understand what is being said… what is CDN? That means Canadian dollars. Currently the exchange rate is about $.74, so my rate of $250-$300 per sq/ft would be $184-$223USD. Allan Edit: I'm not sure what you mean by "...its hard or impossible to get people to look at product made with good wood vs bamboo and other China related imports...". I only use hardwoods (maple, cherry, oak as my "standard" woods, and give the option of other hardwoods (walnut, figured maple/cherry, quarter sawn white oak) and exotics (sapele, tigerwood, black limba) which can surprisingly be cheaper than domestic hardwoods (I'm in central Alberta, Canada, so we can get hard maple for about $4 bd/ft, but walnut can cost between $12-$15 bd/ft and I sometimes get my sapele for about $10-$12 bd/ft. I think the key is making something that people can't (easily) get elsewhere. As I mentioned in another post, I do pretty much exclusively military-themed products, so it's a smaller market, but military (and law enforcement) people really like their unit crests and other related things, so you can charge more than if you are doing generic "clip art" work (or cheap files from Etsy, that anybody can buy). I also encourage customization (name, dates served, unit motto, etc) so it is a "value added" thing, and I generally don't charge extra for (for a few lines of text). I bought a laser-engraver (XTools X1 10W laser) specifically to do laser engraving of text, plus images, as well as putting my logo on. I also offer laser-engraved images in lieu of 3D carvings, since it is faster (far less labour intensive as well) and gives a more budget minded option. The bamboo/China imported stuff market isn't worth the bother in my estimation: people want First world products at Third World pricing, and I won't go down that road. If someone says "I can get that cheaper elsewhere!" I don't disagree, and actually tell them where they can go to get it. But I won't enter the race to the bottom, just to appease cheap-skates and tire-kickers. I did when I started (about 8 years ago) but now I just make it known that I won't entertain it. |
|
|
|
Post by aluomala on Sept 4, 2023 20:06:08 GMT -5
Nathan, my point about the "SpiderMan things" is that it is copyright protected, and you wouldn't LEGALLY be allowed to sell them openly. I am fully aware that (almost) everyone makes things like that (for friends, family, ones-self) but you can't openly advertise selling things like that.
I am retired, and I agree that you want to pay yourself at a fair rate, and I tend to turn away work that doesn't pay me what I think is "fair". I had one person contact me, asking how much I would charge for 2 circles of wood (pine), one 18" and one 12". I pulled the price of $50 out of my behind (I figured it would take me .5 - .75 hrs of work (design, get wood prepped, machining time and basic finishing). They were indignant and declared that they could get it cheaper at Michael's (craft store). I said "OK", and let them trudge off to Michael's. If I charged what Michael's does, I'd go broke, so I don't attempt to compete with them (or Walmart, or HomeDepot, etc).
I still have difficulty figuring out a decent price when I am doing things that are a mixed bag of work: a 3D crest, placed on a backing plaque with v-carve or laser-engraved text, since I can't charge my 3D carving rate for basic v-carving or laser-engraving, but I also don't want to make the bare minimum. So I use the formula that a lot of people use: 3 times the cost of the material, plus labour, machining costs for the "easy stuff" and a $25-$50 fee for any major design work. Most of the customers I get for these things are friends/family, so I'm not fussed about how much I make, and I'm more concerned about not overcharging them. Those types of projects help you determine how long an equivalent job will take, and helps set you up for when it's a "serious" job, especially production work.
I agree that you have to find a market that is underserved (I do almost exclusively military and law enforcement crests, and while there are more and more people entering this market, I only use hardwoods and do high-resolution finishes, so I have little problem getting customers at my higher rate (compared to people who do similar work, but use less appealing woods and don't do high quality/resolution finishes). But people who want to enter the "crafter/maker" market, using clip art and crappy wood, making "Live Laugh Love" or other generic things can't realistically expect to charge those kinds of rates, since Michael's (plus DollarStore-style businesses) can churn that stuff out in sweatshops and offshore for basically slave-labour rates, and will put you out of business before you can even get started.
Anyway, I was just curious where the $60/hr rate came from, and whether you were successfully able to use that in your market area. If it works, it works.
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by nlalston on Sept 4, 2023 23:39:00 GMT -5
Nathan, my point about the "SpiderMan things" is that it is copyright protected, and you wouldn't LEGALLY be allowed to sell them openly. I am fully aware that (almost) everyone makes things like that (for friends, family, ones-self) but you can't openly advertise selling things like that. I am retired, and I agree that you want to pay yourself at a fair rate, and I tend to turn away work that doesn't pay me what I think is "fair". I had one person contact me, asking how much I would charge for 2 circles of wood (pine), one 18" and one 12". I pulled the price of $50 out of my behind (I figured it would take me .5 - .75 hrs of work (design, get wood prepped, machining time and basic finishing). They were indignant and declared that they could get it cheaper at Michael's (craft store). I said "OK", and let them trudge off to Michael's. If I charged what Michael's does, I'd go broke, so I don't attempt to compete with them (or Walmart, or HomeDepot, etc). I still have difficulty figuring out a decent price when I am doing things that are a mixed bag of work: a 3D crest, placed on a backing plaque with v-carve or laser-engraved text, since I can't charge my 3D carving rate for basic v-carving or laser-engraving, but I also don't want to make the bare minimum. So I use the formula that a lot of people use: 3 times the cost of the material, plus labour, machining costs for the "easy stuff" and a $25-$50 fee for any major design work. Most of the customers I get for these things are friends/family, so I'm not fussed about how much I make, and I'm more concerned about not overcharging them. Those types of projects help you determine how long an equivalent job will take, and helps set you up for when it's a "serious" job, especially production work. I agree that you have to find a market that is underserved (I do almost exclusively military and law enforcement crests, and while there are more and more people entering this market, I only use hardwoods and do high-resolution finishes, so I have little problem getting customers at my higher rate (compared to people who do similar work, but use less appealing woods and don't do high quality/resolution finishes). But people who want to enter the "crafter/maker" market, using clip art and crappy wood, making "Live Laugh Love" or other generic things can't realistically expect to charge those kinds of rates, since Michael's (plus DollarStore-style businesses) can churn that stuff out in sweatshops and offshore for basically slave-labour rates, and will put you out of business before you can even get started. Anyway, I was just curious where the $60/hr rate came from, and whether you were successfully able to use that in your market area. If it works, it works. Allan Hi again, Allen. This is the second post from you, and I find it just as informative - and as helpful, as the first. I wish to render an apology, to you, for misinterpreting what was actually meant by your 'spiderman project' statement. Believe me when I say (honestly) that there was absolutely no venom within what I had countered, about that. I had just attempted to clarify something, and methinks that I may not have done so (not nearly as well as I could have)  . You know, whenever I'm doing any v-carving projects I (unless I am designing something up, myself) will search the web for ' free black and white clipart' for whatever it is that I would have in mind. In that manner, I would feel at ease about using whatever it was that I'd find. But NOW, however, you've given me reason to ponder as to whether or not that would really be acceptable/legally proper. I'm going to do this spiderman project for that young boy (as it is to be a gift), but will think twice about selling any. You've truly given me much to ponder, and (yes) to even make changes in, and I appreciate that more than you know. Sincerely. |
|
|
|
Post by grossmsj on Sept 5, 2023 9:16:08 GMT -5
I don't disagree with the gist of Allan's points, specifically doing it cheap and bamboo. But there can be another side to this.
I have a friend that makes a gift pack for companies to hand out to new customers. Part of this pack is a bamboo cutting board engraved on one or two sides with a company logo and something more product specific. The economics of it is that I get $10 per board. A board might take 30-45 minutes of laser engraving, and engraving bamboo sort of sucks.
The positive side of it is that I'll do batches of 40-120 boards. I can do them at a time that suits me. The process is that I'll load 2-4 of these on a jig and press 'go'. I go out to the shop every hour to reload and repeat. My actual time is just minutes per board. I'm doing it when I don't have anything else going on. When done I've got $400 to $1200 that I wouldn't have otherwise had. It's really easy money in big enough gulps that it makes a difference.
My point is to allow ourselves to confront justifiable biases on a case-by-case basis.
Scott
|
|
|
|
Post by aluomala on Sept 5, 2023 11:49:37 GMT -5
Scott, there are always exceptions to the rule, and doing bulk/production runs can fall under that, I suppose. I guess you could use a cake/cupcake analogy: making one cup cake for a customer is likely not cost effective (compared to making one large cake), but making dozens of them can be, as the costs of making multiples brings the unit price down considerably. And if there is little concern for the amount of time taken, all the better.
But I see far too many people trying to run a production "shop" using what are, at best, hobbyist machines (Cricut, cheap 3D printers, diode laser, CNC routers that are kit or home-brew (with notable exceptions (I've seen people's McGyver machines that are better than most entry level machines)), and getting flummoxed when the machine(s) can't keep up with their demands (I see this a LOT more with laser-diode users), mainly since the machines are designed for hobbyists, and at best "side hustle" types of work. I've seen people posting in a panic that they have an order for 100+ items (Yeti mugs are the big one), and their machine has either broken under the strain or they belatedly realize that they are making less than minimum wage (or losing money) because they have to run the machine at a reduced rate (compared to more industrial machines) and can only charge what the market will bear. Plus wastage/spoilage on those types of items can eat into profit (it's easy enough to sand down a wooden plank if you make a mistake: no recovering a boo-boo on a $40 tumbler (or whatever they charge for those glorified tin cups).
I had someone contact me before Christmas, asking to get 30 small plaques (8" x 8" square) and each would have a basic design (company logo and text, laser engraved), and customized text (these were to be presented for top sales to salespeople) for each one. I opted for curly maple, and I think they looked sharp. I quoted $30 per.... and never heard back from this company, who wanted to "keep it local". I suspect they went with offshore, or someone who was willing to do them for nearly nothing. Other than wasting a few hours on design (they were quite vague initially, so there was a bit of back and forth), it was more of a learning experience than anything, and a reminder to myself that I'd rather not be working than working for far less than what my products are "worth".
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by joshuag on Feb 5, 2024 21:50:13 GMT -5
Hello again, ya'll.
I STILL haven't gotten 'heeled up' on how to address (what I think is) excessive carving times, and hope someone can help. I've a simple Spiderman project that I have designed, as a gift, for a very nice young fella (9-10 yrs of age), who simply loves that Marvel super hero. I, personally, like what I came up with, and hope that he does, too. But, as simple as the project design is, its stated carving time seems to be (at nearly 3.5 hrs) much too long. I am only concerned about the carving time in event that someone else might desire to have the same sign (personalized differently, of course). Anything that rolls off my CNC is at a CTR (Carving Time Rate) of $60/hr. So, 208 minutes would translate into $208. I MUST have something set up WRONG.
View Attachment
It sounds like you're facing a challenge with excessive carving times on your CNC machine. Have you considered trying out the Monport laser? It's known for being user-friendly, producing high-quality results, and being affordable. Plus, it might help reduce your carving times significantly. Check out the Monport laser product on monportlaser.com/collections/co2-laser-engravers/products/monport-40w-lightburn-ready-12-x-8-co2-laser-engraver-cutter-with-fda-approval?sca_ref=5031521.ka374VZjm3 to see if it meets your needs. It could be a game-changer for your projects! |
|
|
|
Post by joshuag on Feb 5, 2024 21:52:34 GMT -5
I realized after my initial post that you are running an Iconic series machine, and I have an AR8+Pro, so my settings might be too much for your machine. Your depth of cut (DOC) for the endmill (.03") is quite conservative. Most people use 1/2 of the diameter of the bit (for endmills and regular ball nose (not tapered)), so a setting of .0625 (one half of 1/8") would allow it to be done in 2 passes, vs 3 (your depth is .0938"). Also your feedrate/plunge seem to be very slow (again, not sure how fast the Iconic machines can go). The v-bit, however is what it really slowing you down. I don't know what is "appropriate" for your machine, but 22IPM is pretty slow (painfully slow), and also your Rapid Z settings (in setup) could be reduced, because there are a lot of start/stop/movements with the v-carve, and it (Z gap clearance) seems to be unnecessarily high, and greatly adding to your times). I don't do a lot of v-carving, so I generally run them at fairly conservative settings (ie I'm in no rush, and I can live with the machine running longer than really necessary), but if I had to speed things up, those are the things I would look at "tweaking" to get the time down. Allan Hey there! It seems like you're looking to optimize your CNC machine settings for better efficiency. Have you considered trying out the Monport laser? It's known for being user-friendly, producing high-quality results, and being affordable. Plus, it might help streamline your carving process significantly. Check out the Monport laser product on monportlaser.com/collections/co2-laser-engravers/products/monport-40w-lightburn-ready-12-x-8-co2-laser-engraver-cutter-with-fda-approval?sca_ref=5031521.ka374VZjm3 to see if it could be a good fit for your needs! |
|
|
|
Post by joshuag on Feb 5, 2024 21:54:18 GMT -5
You can't know where 'as fast as possible' is unless you know where too fast is. Spend an hour or two scaring yourself, wasting some scrap wood and maybe breaking an 1/8 inch end mill. You'll be surprised how capable your machine is and how much more productive you can be. If you are experimenting with engraving speeds there's nothing you can do to hurt your Axiom. You might find your hold down method is the rate-limiting step. There's 'being safe' and then there is wasting your time, and they often are very close together. If you are charging people by the hour, it's probably even more important to understand performance boundaries as it's easy to justify how long things take and why. With laser engraving its standard practice to make a 'material test' with a piece of wood (or slate, etc.) to find the sweet spot that optimizes speed and laser power. That's always going to be way better than just trying what other people do. Finding that sweet spot for engraving will take systematic evaluation, but once you have it you are way ahead of the game going forward. It's crucial to find the right balance between speed and safety when operating your CNC machine. Spending some time experimenting with different settings and materials can help you understand the capabilities of your machine better. And if you're looking for a reliable and efficient laser engraving solution, consider checking out the Monport laser. It's known for its ease of use, high quality results, and affordability, making it a great option for both beginners and experienced users. Check out the Monport laser product on monportlaser.com/collections/co2-laser-engravers/products/monport-40w-lightburn-ready-12-x-8-co2-laser-engraver-cutter-with-fda-approval?sca_ref=5031521.ka374VZjm3 to learn more! |
|
|
|
Post by joshuag on Feb 5, 2024 21:55:47 GMT -5
Just listening to the discussion and agree/realize its hard or impossible to get people to look at product made with good wood vs bamboo and other China related imports. But so I can understand what is being said… what is CDN? CDN stands for "Content Delivery Network." It's a network of servers distributed across various locations to deliver web content more efficiently to users. CDN helps improve website performance by reducing latency, speeding up page load times, and enhancing overall user experience. |
|
|
|
Post by jgarciaa on Mar 3, 2024 20:24:40 GMT -5
Hello again, ya'll.
I STILL haven't gotten 'heeled up' on how to address (what I think is) excessive carving times, and hope someone can help. I've a simple Spiderman project that I have designed, as a gift, for a very nice young fella (9-10 yrs of age), who simply loves that Marvel super hero. I, personally, like what I came up with, and hope that he does, too. But, as simple as the project design is, its stated carving time seems to be (at nearly 3.5 hrs) much too long. I am only concerned about the carving time in event that someone else might desire to have the same sign (personalized differently, of course). Anything that rolls off my CNC is at a CTR (Carving Time Rate) of $60/hr. So, 208 minutes would translate into $208. I MUST have something set up WRONG.
View Attachment
Considering the Monport laser could be a prudent choice for your needs given its reputation for being user-friendly, of high quality, and affordable. While you're exploring third-party laser options like Endurance, it's essential to ensure compatibility with your specific CNC machines like the Axiom AR4Pro+ and AR8Pro+. Reviewing documentation and seeking advice from experienced users who have successfully integrated similar lasers into their machines can provide valuable insights. However, Monport's laser products offer a reliable and straightforward solution, ensuring ease of use and peace of mind. monportlaser.com/collections/co2-laser-engravers/products/monport-40w-lightburn-ready-12-x-8-co2-laser-engraver-cutter-with-fda-approval?sca_ref=5031521.ka374VZjm3 |
|
.