dusty
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Posts: 32 
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Post by dusty on Sept 23, 2018 12:20:09 GMT -5
It only took over eight hours, but two cherry live edges slabs belonging to my customer were completely ruined. The Z axis slipped quite a lot. I had this problem a long time ago and was told that I could not run a feed rate of more then 100ipm because the Z axis would slip due to the vertical jogging. Dropped the feed rate to 85 and had no more problems... until now. It is on the finish cut, running at 800ipm, spindle at 15,000rpm and I heard that dreaded grind noise. Ran over to the machine, saw what had happened and my heart sunk. The Z axis fell. A lot, twice! This little problem ruined $300.00 of my customer's live edge cherry slabs and the job was going to be for $250.00. I accomplished nothing and lost $250.00 in an order and now have to pay out an additional $50.00 back to my angry customer. There has to be a cure for this problem. This machine helps me earn a living and when you can't count on it to perform, your business suffers, as I am sure may of you can relate to.
Well Axiom, got a solution? PLEASE!.
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Post by stevem on Sept 23, 2018 14:23:16 GMT -5
Are you really trying to cut at 800 ipm  I was under the impression these machines only run at a max of 200 ipm. |
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Post by aluomala on Sept 23, 2018 14:53:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure if your z-axis coupler slipped or broke (mine did, within a few months of owning it, but luckily I had ordered 5 spares on eBay or Amazon, because I heard it was fairly common), or if the bit itself gotted pulled out through the collet, making the bit "longer" and digging progressively deeper. I have had this happen multiple times, and the best preventative advice I can give is to clean out your collet/nut after every major operation (like a 60+ minute roughing pass with an end-mill). You can buy collet cleaner, but I generally just take it (the collet/nut) apart and blow out the dust and sometimes use a toothbrush (or similar) to clean out the collet grooves and use a q-tip to clean out the "hole" (where the bit fits inside). I also have some tool cleaner spray that I use occasionally to remove build-up. Probably wouldn't hurt to clean your bits occasionally to, so that they don't slip in the collet.
I feel your pain/frustration, since I have ruined about half a dozen (probably more, but I try to block out those bad memories) pieces in the past, but since I have taken to those preventative measures (daily) I haven't had any catastrophes.
If it's the coupler breaking, I can't help but support you in your blaming Axiom, as it seems to be fairly common, and they don't seem to have done anything to correct the issue. I personally feel that they should include at least 1 extra coupler, since those things aren't something you can pick up at Home Depot, etc, and without a coupler, your machine is doing absolutely nothing until you get a new one(s). I feel very strongly that EVERYONE should have at least a few extra couplers, since they are basically the equivalent of a fan belt, and most people keep a few of those around (for lawn mowers, snow blowers, etc).
Allan
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dusty
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by dusty on Sept 24, 2018 9:08:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure if your z-axis coupler slipped or broke (mine did, within a few months of owning it, but luckily I had ordered 5 spares on eBay or Amazon, because I heard it was fairly common), or if the bit itself gotted pulled out through the collet, making the bit "longer" and digging progressively deeper. I have had this happen multiple times, and the best preventative advice I can give is to clean out your collet/nut after every major operation (like a 60+ minute roughing pass with an end-mill). You can buy collet cleaner, but I generally just take it (the collet/nut) apart and blow out the dust and sometimes use a toothbrush (or similar) to clean out the collet grooves and use a q-tip to clean out the "hole" (where the bit fits inside). I also have some tool cleaner spray that I use occasionally to remove build-up. Probably wouldn't hurt to clean your bits occasionally to, so that they don't slip in the collet. I feel your pain/frustration, since I have ruined about half a dozen (probably more, but I try to block out those bad memories) pieces in the past, but since I have taken to those preventative measures (daily) I haven't had any catastrophes. If it's the coupler breaking, I can't help but support you in your blaming Axiom, as it seems to be fairly common, and they don't seem to have done anything to correct the issue. I personally feel that they should include at least 1 extra coupler, since those things aren't something you can pick up at Home Depot, etc, and without a coupler, your machine is doing absolutely nothing until you get a new one(s). I feel very strongly that EVERYONE should have at least a few extra couplers, since they are basically the equivalent of a fan belt, and most people keep a few of those around (for lawn mowers, snow blowers, etc). Allan Oops. I meant 80ipm |
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dusty
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by dusty on Sept 24, 2018 9:13:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure if your z-axis coupler slipped or broke (mine did, within a few months of owning it, but luckily I had ordered 5 spares on eBay or Amazon, because I heard it was fairly common), or if the bit itself gotted pulled out through the collet, making the bit "longer" and digging progressively deeper. I have had this happen multiple times, and the best preventative advice I can give is to clean out your collet/nut after every major operation (like a 60+ minute roughing pass with an end-mill). You can buy collet cleaner, but I generally just take it (the collet/nut) apart and blow out the dust and sometimes use a toothbrush (or similar) to clean out the collet grooves and use a q-tip to clean out the "hole" (where the bit fits inside). I also have some tool cleaner spray that I use occasionally to remove build-up. Probably wouldn't hurt to clean your bits occasionally to, so that they don't slip in the collet. I feel your pain/frustration, since I have ruined about half a dozen (probably more, but I try to block out those bad memories) pieces in the past, but since I have taken to those preventative measures (daily) I haven't had any catastrophes. If it's the coupler breaking, I can't help but support you in your blaming Axiom, as it seems to be fairly common, and they don't seem to have done anything to correct the issue. I personally feel that they should include at least 1 extra coupler, since those things aren't something you can pick up at Home Depot, etc, and without a coupler, your machine is doing absolutely nothing until you get a new one(s). I feel very strongly that EVERYONE should have at least a few extra couplers, since they are basically the equivalent of a fan belt, and most people keep a few of those around (for lawn mowers, snow blowers, etc). Allan Oops. I meant 80ipm The coupler is strong and secured. I do clean my collet between bit changes (an old habit). It will run the roughing pass with no problems and that takes almost five hours on this project and it runs at 100ipm. This only happens on the finishing run. Profile and VCarve run great too. Only the finishing. I did notice that after this "slip" the Z axis will not manually rise to it's full home position. If I "Home" everything, it all goes to where it should. Confusing and frustrating.
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dusty
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by dusty on Sept 24, 2018 9:14:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure if your z-axis coupler slipped or broke (mine did, within a few months of owning it, but luckily I had ordered 5 spares on eBay or Amazon, because I heard it was fairly common), or if the bit itself gotted pulled out through the collet, making the bit "longer" and digging progressively deeper. I have had this happen multiple times, and the best preventative advice I can give is to clean out your collet/nut after every major operation (like a 60+ minute roughing pass with an end-mill). You can buy collet cleaner, but I generally just take it (the collet/nut) apart and blow out the dust and sometimes use a toothbrush (or similar) to clean out the collet grooves and use a q-tip to clean out the "hole" (where the bit fits inside). I also have some tool cleaner spray that I use occasionally to remove build-up. Probably wouldn't hurt to clean your bits occasionally to, so that they don't slip in the collet. I feel your pain/frustration, since I have ruined about half a dozen (probably more, but I try to block out those bad memories) pieces in the past, but since I have taken to those preventative measures (daily) I haven't had any catastrophes. If it's the coupler breaking, I can't help but support you in your blaming Axiom, as it seems to be fairly common, and they don't seem to have done anything to correct the issue. I personally feel that they should include at least 1 extra coupler, since those things aren't something you can pick up at Home Depot, etc, and without a coupler, your machine is doing absolutely nothing until you get a new one(s). I feel very strongly that EVERYONE should have at least a few extra couplers, since they are basically the equivalent of a fan belt, and most people keep a few of those around (for lawn mowers, snow blowers, etc). Allan Sorry, running at 80ipm. If it ran at 800ipm I'd be getting a lot more work done a lot quicker  |
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Post by redwood on Sept 24, 2018 11:51:41 GMT -5
I've had the same issues in my almost 3 years of owning a Axiom. Same causes as outlined by Allen with one other cause. I must have had a brain freeze and forgot to recalibrate the Z when I changed bits. Luckily, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had this issue and luckily for me, none cost me more then $10 and some time.
As always, contact Chad at Axiom, and I'm sure he will help troubleshoot the issue.
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Post by joeblow on Sept 25, 2018 18:31:03 GMT -5
I feel very strongly that EVERYONE should have at least a few extra couplers, since they are basically the equivalent of a fan belt, and most people keep a few of those around (for lawn mowers, snow blowers, etc). Allan I am very interested in ordering an extra coupler or two to have on hand. How would I know wat size I need for an AR6Pro and where would be a good place to order from. Thanks for any info on this... |
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Post by tomlaw10 on Sept 25, 2018 18:56:24 GMT -5
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grg
Junior Member
Posts: 140
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Post by grg on Sept 26, 2018 9:08:13 GMT -5
I'm wondering if perhaps your software travel limits aren't setup correctly on the Axiom machine or if the homing position of the Z-Axis is not correct. If you freshly home the machine and travel the z-axis to it's downward limit (no tooling installed), does it hit a software stop or does it hit a hardware stop and bind the motor? I'm wondering if the machine might be allowing you to program a z-axis travel (or end up with a z-axis travel after a tool change and resetting Z to a different elevation) that is slightly more than what the machine is physically capable of. Once it hits that physical limit, the motor slips and it starts increasingly loosing the z registration. This might also explain why the issue is a bit random - it depends on a combination of program travel and tool mounting depth.
It would seem that this would need to happen in the up direction in order for the Z-axis to drift lower than the setpoint but maybe there's something weird going on related to this. Have you reset the machine back to the default machine parameters with the files from Axiom? At the very least, that might be a good starting point. Mine did all sorts of weird things when I bought it (used) and resetting the machine with the factory setup file cured all of it.
it would also be pretty easy to put a sharpie mark or scribe mark on the tool where it exits the collet to see if it's slipping.
At the end of the day, the motor controllers send each individual step command to the stepper motors and the motor is supposed to respond. However, unlike a servo system, there is no real feedback to the controller about whether or not the motor actually achieved that step command and the controller blindly keeps giving commands assuming the motor got to where it needed to go. Issues that can cause step loss can be both electronic and/or mechanical. This will take some troubleshooting.
I would start with mechanical and first completely disconnect the ball screw from the z-axis carriage assembly and move the z-axis up and down making sure that the travel is smooth and not binding at any point in the extremity of it's motion. You are looking for mis-alignments in the prismatic rails or bearing blocks or any spots that have non-smooth motion that may indicate some sort of issue with the bearing blocks. Next check for smooth rotation of the ball screw in the z-axis carriage and you'll need to manually turn it and try it with and without load on the carriage. Lastly, manually rotate the motor (it will resist a good bit) and look for anything inconsistent in the rotation of the motor.
Next I would go after electrical problems. I would connect an ohmeter set on resistance tone and wiggle all connection points and all wiring listening for a break in that tone all the way back to the controller. Inspect all plugs. Inspect all wiring for a break, pinch, or bind.
If nothing is found yet, I would start running the machine hard on test pieces and see if I could recreate the problem and gain some more information on the conditions that cause the issue....as a last resort, I would probably replace the z-axis motor and pray.
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Post by garylyb on Sept 26, 2018 9:32:40 GMT -5
It seems like the z-axis slipped since it was out at the end.
Have you oiled it lately? Any binding will cause that.
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dusty
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by dusty on Sept 26, 2018 17:12:02 GMT -5
I keep the machine clean and lubed. Always home the machine and set Z depth at every new cut regardless of tool change or not. Software parameters set okay and accurate. Machine is set level. All couplers are tight and in good shape. Plunge rate set at 20, feed at 80 maximum, sometimes at 60. Ways are cleaned and oiled regularly. Somehow this still happens. Finally completed the piece running feed at 40ipm, plunge at 10 and crossed fingers. It worked. Took a long time but it worked.
Still frustrated and afraid to take orders right now. We'll see what Axiom has to say.
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Post by aluomala on Sept 28, 2018 14:14:14 GMT -5
I keep the machine clean and lubed. Always home the machine and set Z depth at every new cut regardless of tool change or not. Software parameters set okay and accurate. Machine is set level. All couplers are tight and in good shape. Plunge rate set at 20, feed at 80 maximum, sometimes at 60. Ways are cleaned and oiled regularly. Somehow this still happens. Finally completed the piece running feed at 40ipm, plunge at 10 and crossed fingers. It worked. Took a long time but it worked. Still frustrated and afraid to take orders right now. We'll see what Axiom has to say. Those feeds you mention are VERY low. For my 3D projects, I run finishing passes at 120IPM and 30IPM (plunge) all the time on my AR4Pro+. I get that you want to just finish your projects with no catastrophes, but running it that slow all the time is useless (particularly if you want to make money). I am curious to hear what Axiom support has to say about your issues, but I would be thinking about returning the machine (if possible) for a new one (whether Axiom or another company) because those feeds and speeds are what one would expect from a DIY machine like a ShapeOko2 or 3, not a far more expensive machine. Allan |
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Post by aluomala on Sept 28, 2018 14:27:40 GMT -5
I never really looked too closely at your photos, but what bit size are you using on your finishing pass? It looks to be pretty big, like 1/8" diameter (1/4" radius), with a high percentage stepover.
This really has nothing to do with your problem (bit dropping) but it certainly looks like you will be doing a TON of finishing (sanding) to get that project smooth.
For roughing pass, I use Amana 46294 Ball Nose (0.25 inch)with a feed rate of 100IPM and stepover of 41% (.1024"). I find that the ball nose (vs end mill) works much better for 3D carvings, since there is rarely ever lines left (from roughing pass). I set a machine allowance of .04" and use 3D raster for roughing strategy.
For finish pass, I use the Amana 46282 (Taper Ball (0.0313 inch) 1/32"R) with a stepover of 7% (.0044"). It takes a long time, but I rarely have to sand (usually use steel wool or equivalent 3M pads).
As an aside, what machine are you running? All this talk of feeds/speeds etc doesn't help if you aren't running a similar capacity machine.
Allan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 8:26:38 GMT -5
Cleaning and lubricating can help, the former especially for the collet and bits. Depending on the season and your shop, the temperature can sometimes be a factor as well besides everything mentioned by others above.
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