ChatGPT (AI Assitance for CNC Millwork)

[dadealeus]

Well, I figured I'd let people know in case they were interested; the most recent release (today's release) of ChatGPT (a chat-based AI) has been able to answer literally every question I've asked it with a verbosity and accuracy that I'd be hard-pressed to find in the most seasoned experts in their fields.

The AI has helped me handle a lot of engineering-related questions as I don't have access to peers in my industry. However, it is also now able to provide good suggestions for feeds and speeds.

I cannot stress how big of a change these tools are for humanity - for good and bad - and I encourage you to experience them for yourself. Here's an example of the conversation I had with it when testing its knowledge regarding CNC milling. For reference, I asked regarding a material and cutter I am quite familiar with. I run it at a rate of 6000 rpm at 122 ipm without any issues (though the chipload is knowingly a bit heavy).

I literally also just asked the AI if it could combine our conversation about CNC mills into a copy/pastable format for this post which it happily provided me with. It refers to me as "User" and itself as "Assistant" and it was much more verbose with its responses in the original conversation. It summarized its responses in the copy/paste version and I am pasting it here for your reference:

=================== BEGIN PASTE================================

Certainly! Here's a copy of our conversation regarding CNC mills:



User: If I am attempting to use the mill to cut through 3/4" thick birch plywood using a 1/4" 2-flute upcut flat bit, can you recommend a good feed and speed rate to start with?



Assistant: When cutting 3/4" thick birch plywood using a 1/4" 2-flute upcut flat bit on a CNC mill, you can start with the following settings as a general guideline:



Spindle speed: 18,000 RPM.

Feed rate: 100-200 inches per minute (IPM).

Plunge rate: 30-60 inches per minute (IPM).

Depth of cut: 1/16" or up to 1/8".


User: Could you provide a good feed rate if I wanted to set my spindle speed down to 6000 rpm?



Assistant: When using a spindle speed of 6,000 RPM with a 1/4" 2-flute upcut flat bit for cutting 3/4" thick birch plywood, you can start with the following feed rate:



Feed rate: 30-60 inches per minute (IPM).



User: Could you tell me the approximate feed per tooth at 60 ipm @ 6000 rpm?



Assistant: At 60 IPM and 6,000 RPM, your approximate feed per tooth (chip load) would be 0.005 inches per tooth.



User: What if I increased the feed rate to 122 ipm?



Assistant: At 122 IPM and 6,000 RPM, your approximate feed per tooth (chip load) would be 0.01016 inches per tooth.



User: In your opinion, is that chip load too high?



Assistant: A chip load of 0.01016 inches per tooth when cutting 3/4" thick birch plywood with a 1/4" 2-flute upcut flat bit at a spindle speed of 6,000 RPM and a feed rate of 122 IPM is on the higher side. A more typical chip load range is between 0.005 and 0.009 inches per tooth. It's a good idea to start with a more conservative chip load and gradually increase the feed rate while monitoring the quality of the cut and the performance of your machine.

=================== END PASTE================================

In short, these tools are quickly going to become the norm and it would be wise to become familiar with them sooner rather than later. The AI has provided me with health advice, planting tips for crops in my area, information regarding some rental properties, truck maintenance (it correctly diagnosed an issue with my truck that 3 mechanics could not - simply by me describing the noise it was making), electrical and engineering questions, hypothetical recursive problems, how to better trim my eyebrows, and the list goes on. My wife asked it to write a song about our dog - which we asked it to refine a few times until it was perfect.

I have no affiliation with this technology other than being ecstatic that it exists and I believe, just like the internet did, it will have a golden age during its inception before it's bogged down with ads, social media, and other damaging factors. Only this time it will progress much more quickly, so that golden age will likely only last a few months.

If you're interested in trying it out for yourself, you can pay $20/mo for access to it (ChatGPT Plus) or hop on the public wait list. I cannot stress how valuable this tool is and if you can spare the $20/mo - do it and thank me later.

Here's the link:

openai.com/product/gpt-4

[loren]

Chatbots are amazing, but it's important to remember that these chatbots are basically text processing tools - they spew out answers based on words they have been fed from the internet without any real understanding of what those words mean. And the answers that they provide may feel definitive and confident, but that is an illusion. It doesn't understand what truth or correctness is, and cannot judge it's responses in those terms, only consistency with the various stories, papers, and forums it's read. There isn't anyone out there saying that the information obtained from, say, the whiteside vectric tool library is any more valid than answers provided by a newbie hobbyist in a subreddit, and so you're equally likely to get either truth.

This is especially challenging when asking questions that require a numerical response. ChatGPT wasn't programmed to be a calculator - it learned computation by reading math examples and trying to guess answers based on that text. Asking ChatGPT itself about that provides this response:

"An example of a math error that ChatGPT could produce is providing an incorrect calculation or formula for a math problem. For instance, if asked to calculate the square root of 16, ChatGPT could potentially produce an incorrect result such as 12 or 20, instead of the correct answer of 4.

Another example could be providing an incorrect conversion factor between units of measurement. For instance, if asked to convert 1 meter to feet, ChatGPT might produce an incorrect response such as 1 meter being equal to 3.28 inches, instead of the correct answer of approximately 3.28 feet.

It's important to keep in mind that ChatGPT relies on the accuracy of the data it has been trained on, and while it can perform calculations accurately most of the time, there is always a possibility of an error occurring."

And you can see errors like that if you ask enough math questions. I just asked it to provide the square root of a fractional number and it confidently provided an answer to 8 digits - everything after the first 3 being total wrong.

You should not rely on any responses they provide in matters of human safety or health.

[dadealeus]

Mar 17, 2023 12:34:55 GMT -5 loren said:

You should not rely on any responses they provide in matters of human safety or health.

You are, in essence, judging a car by its ability to float in water - using a corner-case to judge the overall effectiveness or accuracy of a tool.

This is the first tool in the history of the world that attempts to be a primary reference point for the summation of nearly all human knowledge (accumulated over centuries of time) and you are saying it's unreliable because it only correctly answered one of your mathematical queries to 3 decimal points.

Ironically, you likely double-checked the AI's work on a calculator - a machine that also does not understand any underlying mathematical concepts and, at its inception, someone likely told others they should not rely on in matters of human safety or health. That same machine is now critical to calculations regarding human health and safety.

It's ALWAYS pertinent to double-check your information regardless of what source you derived it from - AI, human, calculator, or otherwise.

The rate of iteration on these AIs is astounding. Within less than a year, this AI will be more accurate than your calculator; in addition to deriving the correct answer to however many decimal points you specify, it will be able to reference the whole of humanity's knowledge for context regarding your calculation. This may, perhaps, point out a mistake in your previous thought process that led you to that calculation in the first place. So the calculator, while mathematically correct, may have provided you the wrong answer for the problem you were attempting to solve due to your own mistake.

Obviously, you're free to believe what you would like, but I believe you're doing yourself a disservice by not utilizing these new tools to the fullest extent possible to better yourself and any services you may offer to others.

======================

EDIT: I also attempted to reproduce your results, but GPT-4 informs me of its limitations and that its answer is an approximation. Are you sure you were using the most recent version of ChatGPT (GPT-4)? Here is the response it provided me with:

User: Can you tell me the square root of .25?

Assistant: Yes, the square root of 0.25 is 0.5.



User: How about the square root of 0.123458?

Assistant: The square root of 0.123458 is approximately 0.351367. Please note that this is an approximation and may not be the exact value.



User: Would you be able to provide me with the exact value?

Assistant: I apologize for any confusion. As a language model, I don't have the capability to compute exact values for square roots of non-perfect squares with complete precision. However, the square root of 0.123458 that I provided earlier (approximately 0.351367) is accurate to six decimal places. If you need a more precise value, you may consider using a specialized calculator or mathematical software.

[pedro]

The uses are infinite. I did not think about such a use you gave it, technical milling info, but great idea.

I used it to get me some sales pitches for my products and I was completely amazed how cool chatgpt presented it to me. Definitely, lots of possibilities.

[savantpcs]

Yeah I saw this and I asked a few questions in regards to purchasing old lathes or mills that ended up being really helpful. I am in the same boat I work alone in my home/shop and sometimes the HARDEST part about going as a solopreneur is not having someone to ask for help when you really need it. Youtube gets old when your constantly hearing extemporaneous life story info and forums gets tough to parse through sometimes. I mean how many forums have you gone through where they were leading to the exact answer you were looking for only to change the subject or direction of the conversation 

For feeds and speeds I don't recommend it just yet. What i do recommend is create a spreadsheet and enter in the data the tool maker supplies for the material you are looking to carve and then enter what you found works. A lot of times their spec sheets are for higher end machines, not routers. But looking at recommended chip load, or chip per tooth and surface feet per minute can really help to see how fast to turn the spindle and how fast to have it feed.

[loren]

Me: "What's the best feed rate when cutting MDF on a cnc machine with a .25 inch double fluted upcut end mill at 25000 rpm?"

The feed rate for cutting MDF on a CNC machine depends on various factors such as the machine's capabilities, tool rigidity, desired surface finish, and cutting conditions. While I can provide some general guidelines, it's important to note that actual feed rates may vary based on specific circumstances and may require experimentation and adjustments.



To determine the feed rate, we can use the chip load per tooth, which represents the amount of material removed by each cutting edge of the end mill during one revolution. The chip load per tooth can be calculated using the following formula:



Chip Load = Feed Rate / (RPM x Number of Flutes)



For your case, you mentioned using a 0.25-inch double fluted upcut end mill at 25,000 RPM. A recommended chip load is 0.002 inches per tooth for MDF cutting. Since it's a double fluted end mill, the number of flutes is 2.



Chip Load = 0.002 inches/tooth

RPM = 25,000

Number of Flutes = 2



Now we can rearrange the formula to calculate the feed rate:



Feed Rate = Chip Load x RPM x Number of Flutes



Feed Rate = 0.002 inches/tooth x 25,000 RPM x 2 flutes

Feed Rate = 0.1 inches per minute (approximately)



Therefore, a starting point for your feed rate could be around 0.1 inches per minute. However, please note that this is just a general guideline, and you should consider factors such as tool deflection, machine rigidity, and desired cutting quality when determining the optimal feed rate. It is advisable to perform test cuts and make adjustments as necessary to achieve the desired results.

Me: click "Regenerate Response"

The optimal feed rate for cutting MDF on a CNC machine depends on several factors, including the specific characteristics of your machine, the condition of the tool, and the desired quality of the cut. While I can provide some general guidelines, it's important to perform test cuts and adjust the parameters based on the actual results.



Typically, when cutting MDF with a 0.25-inch double-fluted upcut end mill at 25,000 RPM, a starting feed rate of around 100-150 inches per minute (IPM) is commonly used. This speed range is a good starting point for achieving a balance between cutting efficiency and minimizing tool wear. However, please note that this is a general guideline and actual settings may vary based on the specific machine, tool condition, and desired cutting quality.



It's important to monitor the performance of the tool and the quality of the cut during the initial test cuts. If the feed rate is too high, you may experience issues such as excessive tool deflection, poor surface finish, or even tool breakage. On the other hand, if the feed rate is too low, it may result in slower production times or excessive heat generation, potentially leading to burning or melting of the MDF.



To optimize the feed rate for your specific setup, consider the following steps:



Start with a conservative feed rate around 100 IPM and observe the results.

Inspect the quality of the cut, looking for signs of burning, melting, or rough surface finish.

If the cut quality is acceptable, you can gradually increase the feed rate in small increments (e.g., 10-20 IPM) until you find the highest rate that still provides satisfactory results.

If you encounter issues with the cut quality or the tool, such as excessive heat or poor chip evacuation, reduce the feed rate accordingly.

Perform regular maintenance on your CNC machine and keep the end mill sharp to ensure optimal performance.

Remember to always prioritize safety and consult the manufacturer's recommendations for your specific CNC machine and end mill.

Me: click "Regenerate Response"


The best feed rate when cutting MDF on a CNC machine depends on various factors such as the specific characteristics of the MDF, the stability and rigidity of the CNC machine, and the desired cutting quality and efficiency. However, I can provide you with some general guidelines to consider.



When working with MDF, it's important to balance the feed rate with the spindle speed (RPM) and the number of flutes on the end mill to avoid issues like burning, melting, or excessive tool wear. Typically, MDF is a relatively soft material, so you can usually achieve higher feed rates compared to harder materials.



A starting point for the feed rate can be calculated using the following formula:



Feed Rate (inches per minute) = RPM x Chip Load x Number of Flutes



Chip Load refers to the thickness of the material removed with each cutting edge of the end mill during one revolution. For MDF, a chip load of around 0.005-0.010 inches per tooth is often suitable.



Assuming a chip load of 0.007 inches per tooth (mid-range value), and a 0.25-inch double-fluted upcut end mill at 25,000 RPM, let's calculate the feed rate:



Feed Rate = 25,000 RPM x 0.007 inches/tooth x 2 flutes = 350 inches per minute



Keep in mind that this is a starting point, and you may need to adjust the feed rate based on the specific characteristics of your machine, tooling, and the desired outcome. It's always recommended to perform test cuts and make adjustments as necessary to achieve the best results in terms of cutting quality, tool life, and production efficiency.

-----------------

So there it is - somewhere between .1 and 350 inches per minute for MDF. 

[dadealeus]

Jun 5, 2023 19:49:37 GMT -5 loren said:

So there it is - somewhere between .1 and 350 inches per minute for MDF. 

Now try it using GPT-4 (the latest release):

Me: What's the best feed rate when cutting MDF on a cnc machine with a .25 inch double fluted upcut end mill at 25000 rpm?

GPT-4:

Feed rate, or the speed at which the CNC machine is driving the cutting tool through the material, can be dependent on several factors including the tool type, the hardness and thickness of the material, and the power and rigidity of the CNC machine itself.



That being said, the basic formula to calculate the feed rate is:



Feed Rate = Chip Load x Cutting Length x Spindle Speed



Where:

- Chip Load: The amount of material removed by each flute of the cutting tool per revolution.

- Cutting Length: The number of cutting edges on your tool.

- Spindle Speed: The speed at which the CNC spindle rotates in RPM.



The chip load for cutting MDF with a .25 inch cutter generally recommended is around 0.002"-0.005". Given that your tool is a two-flute cutter, the cutting length would be 2. With your provided spindle speed of 25000 RPM, the feed rate can be calculated as follows:



Taking the lower end of the chip load range (0.002"):

Feed Rate = 0.002 inch/rev x 2 flutes x 25000 RPM = 100 inches per minute (IPM)



Taking the upper end of the chip load range (0.005"):

Feed Rate = 0.005 inch/rev x 2 flutes x 25000 RPM = 250 inches per minute (IPM)



So a reasonable range would be 100-250 IPM. Start at the lower end and then gradually increase the feed rate while monitoring the quality of the cut and the performance of the machine. If you see burning or hear a high pitched noise, your feed rate is likely too slow. If you hear a lot of vibration or see rough cuts, your feed rate might be too high.



Remember to always prioritize safety over speed. When in doubt, it's better to err on the side of a slower feed rate.



(Note: While the provided calculations and guidelines can give a general starting point, always refer to the tooling manufacturer's data for precise feed and speed rates, especially for specific cutting tools and materials.)

[dadealeus]

Additionally, the next release will likely eclipse GPT-4 and is estimated to be released near the end of 2023. Many people believe it will achieve AGI at that point.

-but, yes, it's best to have a sense of human (sorry; humor) as you're rendered completely obsolete by a machine.

[savantpcs]

I saw a 9kw ATC spindle on alibaba so decided to ask:

What do I need to power a 9kw spindle power wise on my cnc router at home? ( )

ChatGPT

To power a 9kW spindle on your CNC router at home, you will need to consider several factors related to electrical power requirements. Here are the key considerations:

Voltage: Determine the voltage requirement of your spindle. Spindles commonly operate on either single-phase or three-phase power. Check the specifications of your spindle to identify the required voltage.

Current: Calculate the current draw of your spindle. You can use the formula: Current (Amps) = Power (Watts) / Voltage (Volts). For a 9kW spindle, assuming it operates on a single-phase power supply, and using a common voltage of 230V, the current draw would be approximately 39.13 Amps.

Circuit Breaker: Ensure that your home electrical system can handle the current draw of the spindle. Consult with a qualified electrician to verify the capacity of your existing electrical circuit and determine if any upgrades are necessary. You may need a dedicated circuit and an appropriately sized circuit breaker to handle the load.

Wiring: Adequate wiring is crucial to handle the power requirements. You may need to use appropriately sized wires, considering the current rating of the spindle. Again, it is recommended to consult with an electrician to ensure compliance with local electrical codes and safety standards.

Phase Converter (if required): If your spindle requires three-phase power but your home only has a single-phase power supply, you will need a phase converter. A phase converter can convert single-phase power to three-phase power. Ensure you select a phase converter that can handle the power requirements of your spindle.

Electrical Outlet: Install a suitable electrical outlet that matches the voltage and current requirements of your spindle. It should be properly grounded and wired to handle the power load.

It is important to note that dealing with high-power electrical systems can be dangerous and should be done by a qualified professional. Consult with an electrician or an expert familiar with CNC machinery to ensure that your electrical system meets the necessary requirements and safety standards


Im fairly certain it's not single phase power as I think it said it was 380v