AR Pro+ pre-purchase questions: Noise and Dust collection

[johntx]

Folks, I've waited so long for the I2R to be available I've talked myself into getting the AR Pro+ instead. 
But, a few questions:
With the spindle running, NOT cutting material, how would you describe the noise level? I'm comparing to a dewalt trim router. The Axiom staff stated I'd barely hear it running, but I'd like to hear this from a user.

Regarding dust collection, I noticed the shoe is built for a 4" dust hose. There's no way I'll be running my 4" dust collector for hours on end while the CNC runs, I've always just used a shopvac. Do you find that the 4" hose diameter reduces air velocity to the point that the shopvac is not effective? or what do you folks do? On the subject, feel free to share what vacuum you use if it's quiet and capable of keeping up with the CNC.

Final question regards the precision the machine is capable of, I'm confident it's very high, but is there a gallery of work somewhere convenient so I could see some examples of intricate details (talking here about engraving small text, less than 0.2" high, or similarly small details). In other words, is backlash an issue and if so are we talking 0.0002" or 0.002"?

Thanks all!

[johnb]

Here's my plan as I await delivery of my AR16 Elite (I'm "next", whenever that turns out to be).

I'm about to pull the plug on a Grizzly G0862 3hp cyclone dust collector. It will be installed in a soundproofed closet adjacent to the CNC and connect through a 4" port in the wall. Everything from there back to the collector (and the branch lines on the other pickup points for my other tools) will be 6".  At a nominal 1940 cfm (at 2.9" SP), that's overkill for the CNC, so here's my justification for running a 3 hp motor (15 amps @ 220V) continuously to suck dust and chips from the CNC:

The ceiling height at the peak is over 22' in my shop (this portion of the shop is 26' x 52' with a 12'x26' open loft on either short side with a floor height of 10').  That leaves an open space in the middle of the shop that's 26' x 28' with a ceiling height that ranges from 18' to 22' ( plus 14' to 18' above each loft).  It gets way hot in S. Texas, and our 'cooling days' outnumber days that I'd need heat by over 10:1, so here's my 'plan'

The CNC will reside in the middle portion of the shop. The dust collector closet will be under one loft, as will my 5 hp upright air compressor (in a different closet). Both will vent to the outdoors (using the exhaust pressure of the dust collector and a thermostatic fan for the compressor). In addition to my 6" branch circuits for table saw, planer, jointer, 24" drum sander, band saw, radial arm saw, 2 router tables, jig saw, 6"x48" belt sander (with 12" disc sander), drill press, miter saw, and oscillating sander I will run a 6" duct to the peak of the ceiling (with a blast gate at a reachable height). Since I'm a one-man shop, only one tool at a time (other than the CNC) will require dust collection. I can open the blast gate to the branch that goes to the peak of the ceiling and still have plenty of flow for the CNC and "choke it down" when as necessary to have adequate flow to any of the other machines (the band saw and drum sander each have 2 of the 4" ports).

I've recorded summertime temperature differentials of as much as 10 degrees between the 22' level and 3' above the floor (despite heavy wall and ceiling insulation). From mid-day until dusk, the differential from the ceiling temp to the ambient outside air temp runs about 5 degrees.  Pulling the superheated air from the top of the building (which has no gable or roof ventilation by design) will prevent that heat from "baking down" to the rest of the shop when I'm not running the two Canarm 60" ceiling fans that move over 41,000 cfm each. Those fans tend to move a lot of dust around. Once I get this hooked up, I may only run the fans in "updraft" mode. This would "cost" me the perceived cooling effect of the air blowing past me (Other than what's pulled in through the operable windows), but it should have the added result of getting more dust out of the building by moving it somewhat "within reach" of the dust collector port at the ceiling.  We shall see.

On what material do you intend to engrave that .2" text? Aluminum, Acrylic, or Brass, I hope. Not many woods would "hold" that level of detail. When cutting text that small, I'd think you wouldn't NEED a dust collector (or boot), just point the shop vac wand at it now and then. Everything I've heard/read indicates that the noise from the spindle pales in comparison to what's created by the bit in the material and that's highly variable. Your spindle won't be running all THAT much when you aren't cutting anyway.




 

[gerry]

Feb 9, 2019 20:55:17 GMT -5 johntx said:

Folks, I've waited so long for the I2R to be available I've talked myself into getting the AR Pro+ instead. 
But, a few questions:
With the spindle running, NOT cutting material, how would you describe the noise level? I'm comparing to a dewalt trim router. The Axiom staff stated I'd barely hear it running, but I'd like to hear this from a user.

Regarding dust collection, I noticed the shoe is built for a 4" dust hose. There's no way I'll be running my 4" dust collector for hours on end while the CNC runs, I've always just used a shopvac. Do you find that the 4" hose diameter reduces air velocity to the point that the shopvac is not effective? or what do you folks do? On the subject, feel free to share what vacuum you use if it's quiet and capable of keeping up with the CNC.

Final question regards the precision the machine is capable of, I'm confident it's very high, but is there a gallery of work somewhere convenient so I could see some examples of intricate details (talking here about engraving small text, less than 0.2" high, or similarly small details). In other words, is backlash an issue and if so are we talking 0.0002" or 0.002"?

Thanks all!

They are correct. If only your spindle is running, it almost too quiet to hear. I usually have to look to make sure it's on/off.

You are correct, you don't want to run your ShopVac for hours. It's not made to. I went the budget route. 70 gal. 2 HP Heavy Duty High Flow High Capacity Dust Collector from Harbor Freight. I only had it hooked to my CNC. I use the ShopVac for everything else. I also replaced the filter bag. POWERTEC 70001 Dust Collector Bag, 20-Inch x 31-Inch, 1 Micron. I later added a 'Y' and a couple of manual gates to it to also use it with my new drum sander. Dust collectors ARE LOUD. If possible, move it outside or build a cabinet. I'm happy with this setup.

P.S. I did add this to clean up the air a bit. Works great. WEN 3415T 3-Speed Remote-Controlled Industrial-Strength Air Filtration System (556/702/1044 CFM)

[aluomala]

As mentioned above, when the spindle is running with no load (and a small bit (1/4" or smaller)) it is almost silent. Put a bigger bit (spoilboard bit for example, or larger bottom cleaning bit) and the wind noise picks up considerably, but not bad. When you put the machine under load (running a 1/4" end mill in hardwood at a good speed (80+ IPM) and you will be needing hearing protection, and perhaps even thinking about an enclosure to contain the sound. I don't think I've seen any of the bigger machines (the AR6, 8 or Elite series) with soundproof enclosures, but that is likely because they are run in an environment where there are money other loud pieces of equipment running at the same time that don't have enclosures (table saws, planers, dust collectors, etc), so it is just accepted that you have to wear hearing protection and you don't need to contain the noise.

I second the argument for dust collector over shop vac. The volume of sawdust/chips that are collected would overwhelm a standard shop vac, so the dust collector earns it's pay. I still have a shop vac to clean up around my machine and to pick up chips that the dust shoe doesn't get, so it's not like your shop vac would sit idle.

On my finishing toolpaths (I do primarily 3D carving with my machine) I use 1/16" radius (and smaller) tapered ball end bits , so I generally leave my dust collector off, and just vacuum the dust/chips up once in a while to see what the piece looks like as the cutting is in progress.

Allan

[johntx]

Thank you all for the quick responses.
As to the material for precise engraving, it's polycarbonate. I'd love to see examples of the intricacy this machine is capable of.
I have a HF 2HP dust collector, and it is SO LOUD I can't stand to run it. I mounted it above a dust deputy to a 2x4 frame which I mounted to the wall, with rubber insulators everywhere, and it runs so rough it shakes the house. Maybe I bought a bad unit. But I'm open to the idea of trying another one. The way I use CNC it doesn't make a lot of chips (I'm not 3d carving anything), my intentions are light milling and engraving of polycarbonate and aluminum, but I am a big believer in extracting the chips in real-time. Polycarbonate likes to melt.

[uzumati]

Feb 10, 2019 7:18:40 GMT -5 johntx said:

Thank you all for the quick responses.
As to the material for precise engraving, it's polycarbonate. I'd love to see examples of the intricacy this machine is capable of.
I have a HF 2HP dust collector, and it is SO LOUD I can't stand to run it. I mounted it above a dust deputy to a 2x4 frame which I mounted to the wall, with rubber insulators everywhere, and it runs so rough it shakes the house. Maybe I bought a bad unit. But I'm open to the idea of trying another one. The way I use CNC it doesn't make a lot of chips (I'm not 3d carving anything), my intentions are light milling and engraving of polycarbonate and aluminum, but I am a big believer in extracting the chips in real-time. Polycarbonate likes to melt.

I have a HF 2hp dust collector frankenstiened to a dust deputy also. I vented it outside of the shop to atmosphere and the noise inside isn’t that bad. I do have a 10 acre lot so neighbors aren’t a concern.

[joeblow]

First test cut done the other day of the smallest text I've attempted.

Ariel bold, 60* vbit, material is maple, height is .08" (2mm).  Pleased with the outcome as further tweaking should yield better results.  Completed on the rotary.

[grg]

3/8" thick Polycarbonate I cut about a week ago with a 1/8" single flute end mill.  It takes some experimenting to get the feed and speed right but it does just great when it is.  The version on the left I had the feed a little slow and it started to melt the plastic causing it to wind up on the bit and left a lot of scuffing.

[stevem]

99.9% of the time when using the cnc, I have the dust collector running. I use hearing protection. I don't have the option of running the dust collector outside or another room since I live in Wisconsin and it's just too cold. My collector sits next to the cnc machine. I use hearing protection while running the table saw, Band Saw, planer and even my drum sander as well as when using hand sanders, so it doesn't take long to get used to them being on your head. Yes the dust collectors are loud. I hav not seen any that aren't. But I will say my shop vac has a higher pitch sound and is very loud as well.
As for the spindle running, everyone is correct! When they are just running and not cutting wood, you don't even know it's running. Once a bit starts cutting you will know it's running.
My collector is a 6 year old HF with a Grizzly filter ( the one that has a crank to shake out the dust) on the top and a Super Dust Deputy mounted to a 55 gal drum to collect the dust and chips. I have a Y connector off the Super Dust Deputy and have blast gates mounted, so once n awhile I will run 2 machines at a time.

[johntx]

Thanks again everyone. I'm going to place my order now, hopefully a unit will be available later this month to ship.
I guess I just missed the sale where they throw in the stand for free... Gonna have to find somebody to weld one for me.
JoeBlow, that 0.08 text is spot-on - and to wrap on the rotary axis is excellent as well. I needed a picture like that to make sure this big machine can handle the little stuff I do!
I appreciate y'all's help.
John B, I'll PM you to see how geographically close we are. It gets hot here too.

[loren]

My CNC is downstairs, so noise  management is important.

I wrapped my dust collector in a homosote cabinet. For those who are unfamiliar with it, homosote  is a compressed cellulose sheet product that is pretty inexpensive, available at Home Depot, and excels at dampening sound and vibration. 




This reduced the sound to 68db at 10 feet, and I can run it all day without anyone upstairs taking issue. 

[johntx]

Loren, that is a great idea. I like it! Not sure if I have room for it, but it's worth looking into! I am unfamiliar with Homosote, but while we're on the subject, do you think it would be a useful noise barrier to place on a wall between one's workshop and bedroom?

[loren]

Every little bit helps, but it's not a miracle either.

[joeblow]

Feb 11, 2019 16:26:14 GMT -5 johntx said:

Loren, that is a great idea. I like it! Not sure if I have room for it, but it's worth looking into! I am unfamiliar with Homosote, but while we're on the subject, do you think it would be a useful noise barrier to place on a wall between one's workshop and bedroom?

Hi John.  Homosote is well regarded as a sound deadening panel.  The Sound Proof Wall is one of many wall types I have constructed as a commercial carpenter.  Always interesting as every Architect seemed to have his own idea of how to sound proof walls.  The common denominator was always the use of RC Channel or Hat Track.  The premise being to isolate your wall board from framing materials in order to minimize sound transmission.  I believe Home Depot even carries these channels.  A Google search will yield much info for you on the use of these channels.  I presume simply gluing homosote to existing wall board would have a positive effect too.  However, if you have the space definitely consider using one of the aforementioned channels.  RC only adds an additional 1/2" to wall thickness.  Hat channel closer to an inch.  I have also installed a lot of fabric covered homosote board in high ceilings since the "Industrial" look is in fashion these days with breweries and cafes popping up all over the place in old industrial buildings.  Those that use it have great acoustic qualities.  Those that don't, well the sound is just terrible.

[loren]

My next noise reduction task will involve some HVAC work. We have forced air heat, and there's a heat register in the ceiling right above my CNC machine. The ducting has proved to be a remarkably efficient way to broadcast the CNC music in every room in the house.

[johnb]

I cannot fine homosote board on the HD website any larger than 2' x 4'...which makes this > $42 a sheet. Lowe's lists 2 in 4'x8'sheets. Apparently one is twice the density of the other (based on weight), but the low-density is unavailable (priced in $16 range, the high density is twice that). I'm wondering about putting up Reflectix (foil faced double thickness bubble wrap). Lowe's has that at about $135/400' in 4' x 100' rolls. Either WILL burn, but the foil face on the Reflectix will not ignite from an errant spark or ember.

[loren]

I used www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-1-2-Sound-Board-Sound-Barrier-Sheathing-206136/202090212

Our local HD has a stack of them.

[johnb]

Feb 12, 2019 9:26:24 GMT -5 loren said:

I used www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-1-2-Sound-Board-Sound-Barrier-Sheathing-206136/202090212

Our local HD has a stack of them.

Apparently a regional item, as it is unavailable within 100 miles of me and not available for delivery

[gerry]

Feb 12, 2019 12:11:38 GMT -5 johnb said:

Feb 12, 2019 9:26:24 GMT -5 loren said:

I used www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-1-2-Sound-Board-Sound-Barrier-Sheathing-206136/202090212

Our local HD has a stack of them.

Apparently a regional item, as it is unavailable within 100 miles of me and not available for delivery

Same here for Southern California...

[loren]

www.homasote.com/wheretobuy might help.

[gerry]

Thanks, added to my browser..