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Post by ldbecker on Jan 6, 2019 4:20:22 GMT -5
Hi, All - I had been looking for a long time at the Legacy Maverick - and it's just too big for my woodworking hobby garage shop (Unisaw, Laguna 16" band saw, jointer/planer, lathe, drill press, and too many Festools). I think the AR8 Elite is about right - but I have some questions that I haven't been able to sort out yet.
1) I DO like the Maverick's ability to mount boards vertically on the edge of the machine - this doesn't seem possible with Axiom's machines - correct? (I saw the BuildswithBrian hack - beyond my abilities, but maybe Axiom could market such a thing?
2) I had also been looking at the Laguna IQ PRO with the 3 position auto changer. Stepper based, I believe. Smaller, and about the same cost as the Elite with its smallest table. Can do edge routing on some level. HUGE controller? They are a little shady about showing the control box for the IQ pro I noticed. I think an auto tool changer would be a HUGE benefit. Comments? The Laguna machines seem related to the Axioms - or am I imagining it? So - auto tool changer? More trouble than it's worth? Again, the control box looks just massive in their one video on the IQ pro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SAOQWX41SY&t=78s about 12 seconds in).
3) Weight difference between the AR8 Elite (764 lbs) and the AR8 Pro+ (405 lbs). I notice that the Elite doesn't list options for the stand and toolbox - are they included with the Elite series? Hence the extra weight? That would help justify the significantly higher cost (except the Pro+ seems to often include the stand and toolbox at no charge). Are the Elites ever on sale?
4) Servo vs. Stepper - I know - not again... Do servos "lose steps" like the stepper motor-based CNCs? Those who have the Elite - does it justify the extra expense? Or is it just the cool red paint?
5) Tramming the Elite spindles. Is this tough to do? I imagine you'd want a dual dial indicator device that mounts in the spindle collet to help with that. Are the mounts adjustable so that can be done? How badly have they needed adjustment?
6) Pendant vs. Computer (again) - Other than not having the computer in the dusty shop, I'm not sure I get the big deal. I see a UK distributer (StoneyCNC - "We do not believe in hand-held controllers") is selling the Axiom line with a UCCNC controller for Windows-based pcs. They go on to talk about how much that's better than the hand-held controller. If you have a pc, in some software you can stop the G-code run if there is an issue, and go back to a certain line to restart the process. Can you do this with a pendant?
7) Hust Pendant - looks more deluxe - better? Or just necessary for the servo-based system?
8) Reading the posts on this forum, there seems to be an issue with the rotary attachment? Sorted out yet?
Thanks for any and all help. This forum is a MAJOR selling point/enhancement for Axiom CNCs.
Larry
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johnb
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New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
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Post by johnb on Jan 6, 2019 11:42:21 GMT -5
Larry
I'm still awaiting delivery of my AR-16 Elite, but I can answer a few of your questions.
First...you started off by saying "woodworking hobby garage"...then expresses chagrin at the lack of availability of an auto tool changer. If you're not doing huge runs of identical production, why would you think that this is something you need? Sure, it would be nice to have, but the only real justification for having one in a hobby environment, in my mind, would be ...say...if you bought a used machine that had one on it and essentially "got it free".
Mounting boards vertically (as with Brian's hack) would be nice. I think I'd wait until the warranty was up before heading in that direction, however. While it does require precision to produce, that extension is not all that complex. Maybe you could find someone who does "plasma work" and trade out some of what you can do for his work on this...just a thought. Meanwhile, don't fall into the trap of "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail" by thinking that the entire project has to "happen" on the CNC (just because you have one).
I can't speak to the Laguna & Axiom machines being "related". The Axiom & Powermatic machines are definitely "related". The Powermatic manual will tell you a lot about how to do things with your machine (until Axiom gets around to producing meaningful documentation).
The Elite models do ship with a stand and toolbox. I pointed out to Craig Youngman (at Axiom) that they really need to emphasize this in their marketing, since you kind of have to "dig down" and "build" one to discover that it's not an option (as it is on the other machines). This makes the price differential in the Pro Series and the Elite Series less than it would appear to be otherwise, and definitely accounts for at least some of the weight differential. The AR-16 Elite actually ships mounted to the stand (at 1,347 lbs) and includes full skirting on all 3 sides (other than where the toolbox sits) Per the "shared" manual, the AR-8 Elite stands require assembly and attachment of the machine. I wouldn't look for any "sales" on the Elite any time soon. I ordered mine at the end of November and they haven't gotten it yet, and, at this point, I'm "second in line" (they get containers every week).
Gary Campbell (who also posts extensively on "other forums") swears by tramming the spindle. I bought a "tram arm" online for about $35 (without dial indicators) and intend to use it with "feeler gauges" (per his advice). This isn't something that you will be "repeating" with any great frequency once your spindle is mounted and the table is set up. If you're not relocating it with some regularity, you can get by with the analog method just fine.
I have no idea if you can "force" a servo to lose steps, but I wouldn't think it would occur "in the same way" as it does with steppers. Someone else will have to address that. I do know that, in some situations, the servo encoder can pass "bad information" back to the controller, resulting in issues.
As a CPA, I've made my living, pretty much for the last 38 years, with computers. I'd just as soon not have it in the shop at all. You can install the Vectric software on more than one machine, and I intend to do so, using my (fiber optic connected) desktop for the major design work and a laptop to "tweak" things in the shop (which is located 3 miles from my home and doesn't currently have an internet connection). StoneyCNC doesn't care for pendants. Camaster ships their units with a computer, a monitor and WinCNC software. Some of their users (James McGrew) run production setups with multiple monitors and everything located "right off the end" of the machine. I imagine that they are relatively diligent about "cracking open the case" and blowing out dust on a regular basis. Again, invoking Gary Campbell, there are issues and limitations with the UCCNC stuff and there are "better things out there" (Acorn). He has offered to make conversions elsewhere in this forum if that's the way you want to go, but I wouldn't dive right in to a $1,200 upgrade just to be able to watch the toolpath on a screen while it's happening. The two little dials on the bottom of the HUST controller (which is definitely a step up from the RichAuto) control feeds and speeds "on the fly".
I hope that you find my information/observations helpful, and would welcome any amplification or corrections from those on this forum who are more experienced and knowledgeable. (If that never happened, the entire forum would simply be an exercise in "pooled ignorance").
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 6, 2019 12:02:18 GMT -5
johnb - Thanks so much for this! Very helpful!!! Addressing the Auto tool changer question - you're, of course, correct... "need" is something a hobbiest likely wouldn't be able to truly say. However, I am close to retirement (though I just took another position that may delay this for a while), and would think that an ATC would really help things along. Legacy is hinting about an ATC version of their Maverick (which is now entering version two). On the computer issue - some software (speaking from observation only) allows the program to restart at a given line if there is an issue. Can this be done with the controller? With regard to edgecutting - not sure this make or break. As a side note, I recently ordered a Shaper Origin - which is in fairly early stages of development still, but it promises some capabilities in this area, as well as much more. I am into template routing, and this basically creates the template on the workpiece and lets you use the first 1/4" or so cut as the pattern to finish the piece with.
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johnb
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New owner @ March 2019, AR16 Elite, Aspire, 4th Axis & Laser
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Post by johnb on Jan 6, 2019 14:50:35 GMT -5
According to the "manual" (provided you enable "restart") you can Pause or Stop the process and then resume. Pausing leaves the spindle active and does not permit changes when Unpausing. Stopping will stop the file when the next "M1" (optional stop) is encountered. I am totally clueless as to "how" the M1 gets programmed into the G Code in the first place. After a Stop, you can locate the line number where it stopped, go back to a previous line number or skip forward in the file. This pre-supposes that you understand enough about the G-Code to know what you're looking at when you get there. I assume (always dangerous), that you could also modify the file externally, reload it to the controller and pick up where you left off (or at some other point-to-be determined). Admittedly "thin"...read the manual about the controller here. Controller operations start on Page 17 www.axiomprecision.com/media/axiom-elite-manual.pdf
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 18:11:18 GMT -5
4) Servo vs. Stepper - I know - not again... Do servos "lose steps" like the stepper motor-based CNCs? Those who have the Elite - does it justify the extra expense? Or is it just the cool red paint? 5) Tramming the Elite spindles. Is this tough to do? I imagine you'd want a dual dial indicator device that mounts in the spindle collet to help with that. Are the mounts adjustable so that can be done? How badly have they needed adjustment? 6) Pendant vs. Computer (again) - Other than not having the computer in the dusty shop, I'm not sure I get the big deal. I see a UK distributer (StoneyCNC - "We do not believe in hand-held controllers") is selling the Axiom line with a UCCNC controller for Windows-based pcs. They go on to talk about how much that's better than the hand-held controller. If you have a pc, in some software you can stop the G-code run if there is an issue, and go back to a certain line to restart the process. Can you do this with a pendant? A stepper is a type of motor that is typically run open loop, that means you tell it to move but it has no position feedback for it to know if it did what you asked, thus it can lose steps if the torque is less than the load, a common occurrence at higher speeds or when using micro-stepping to get smoother motions as both lower available torque. A servo system or when applied in the context of a motor is a closed loop control, that is, there is feedback to determine the error between commanded and actual values. So a servo motor can't lose steps as it has smooth continuous motion instead of actual steps (200 per revolution is most common or 1.8 degrees). Further, it will typically have less position error because of the feedback. Servo-based systems normally have a flatter torque curve so they do better at higher speeds. Tramming is a good thing to do on any machine, not all machines out there are designed to be trammed (having an adjustment method) so you may have to repeatedly loosen and adjust structural fasteners to accomplish the same results. I much prefer computer-based systems as the large screen displays much more information for feedback and they have more features. Remember that the PC isn't typically controlling the machine like in parallel port days as most methods have the PC talking to a dedicated low-level controller that is doing the real-time path control loop once the PC sends the higher level path planning information to it.
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 8, 2019 1:05:33 GMT -5
Thanks, fean...
I called Axiom today and got a nice/helpful lecture on servos and closed loop systems vs. stepper motors. Much the same info you kindly provided - but the flatter torque curve is interesting. I really would prefer to go this route.
I am a bit stumped on machines in the 2x4 range, with servo motors and computers instead of pendants - I haven’t seen anything like that.
Admittedly, I have been focused on Legacy machines, though. Their method of tooling makes sense to me. They have a whole database of bits that can be used in their method of ornamental turning. Looks very cool - problem is that I don’t see myself doing a lot of that kind of turning. Their use of more usual tools for general work looks about like everyone else’s. And their Maverick is a 3x5 stepper-based unit. A 2x4 is about as big as I can go currently.
The Axiom Elite seems a good choice to me - the only real drawback I see is not being able to mount a piece vertically to cut joints. The pendent could likely work ok, but I would prefer a computer as well. Other options?
Thanks again!
Larry
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 10:40:06 GMT -5
The longer you wait the better the choices. There are several new machines available this year that have some nice features that at least look good on paper.
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johnb
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Post by johnb on Jan 8, 2019 10:59:40 GMT -5
Before "waiting" too long...check again with Craig Youngman. He indicated (when I made my order) that price increases were pending (and soon).
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 8, 2019 15:23:13 GMT -5
I've actually been waiting for a while - @fean, can you make any brand suggestions? I'm stumped, actually. Like many, I started looking at the little Next Wave machines (um, no), then Legacy (too big, $$$), and I've looked at Laguna (I've had iffy luck with Laguna support on my 12" jointer/planer and 16" bandsaw - though they're dialed in and going strong after 15 yrs), Shopsabre (but there's Router Bob to deal with), Cammaster, and Probotix (interesting, but too much bolting together stuff that will loosen up). All have some strengths, I guess. I don't know where else to look.
I am taking delivery on a Shaper Origin literally tomorrow - that will occupy my woodworking life for a bit, so waiting isn't really an issue. Learning the ins and outs of Fusion 360 (not too hard for use with the Origin, I think).
So - other brands I haven't thought of? I'm having trouble finding something to compete with a servo-based Axiom, even with the control pad and no ability to mount boards vertically for edge joints.
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Post by stevem on Jan 8, 2019 18:40:01 GMT -5
For the money, Axiom is really the way to go. If I had more funds, I might havd considered a Camaster with a spindle and a few other goodies, but the price is way up there. A guy I know has a $35,000 legacy, but he also has a business and does lots of custom things like special turned spindles so he has a 4th axis for his machine. It also has a 5 h.p. spindle. There are so many choices for cnc machines. You just have to find the one that is rite for you and what you intend to use it for. Some of these forum members use their machines every day and all day. I do that sometimes, but then there are days that I don't use the machine for a week or more. I just do more conventional woodworking whit more standard types of tools. As I have said in many posts, I really like my machine! So far it has done all I can ask for and more. I would really like to do some 3d work with it if I can ever find the time. I do some V-carving from time to time, but for the most part, I use my machine for cutting out parts. The great thing about a cnc is every part is the same as every other part. Many pieces I cut could be done with a band saw, but considering all the sanding on every piece, it's just easier to do it with a cnc. It will be hard for you to find a better machine for the money than the Axiom. You just need to get used to the pendant to run the machine and not use a pc.
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 8, 2019 19:41:14 GMT -5
Some of the things I like about the Axiom - the self-contained cooling system, customer support, this bulletin board, the design of the stand and tool case... the design of the machine itself (except for no over the edge machining on verticals stock), servo motors on the Elite series, add-one that make sense (like the over-arm dust system, rotary turning center, and even led kit (not so sure about the low power laser). It ticks most of my boxes, about $15k with Aspire. The Legacy Maverick is about $20k with Aspire, has better training and support, fewer options, stepper motors only, and is a bigger machine (3x5). Ugh... getting ready to play with the Shaper Origin tomorrow... that may eventually help with the lack of edge cutting on the Axions.
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Post by stevem on Jan 8, 2019 22:48:33 GMT -5
Just so you know, stepper motors are used on many machines and much larger machines as well. They have been used for quite some time and are very reliable. Many of the larger machines that use stepper motors are also quite a bit more expensive. Again, depending on what you intend to use the machine for will determine what you will be spending. $15,000 is quite a lot of money, but if you have it then go for it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 10:42:48 GMT -5
Just so you know, stepper motors are used on many machines and much larger machines as well. They have been used for quite some time and are very reliable. Many of the larger machines that use stepper motors are also quite a bit more expensive. Again, depending on what you intend to use the machine for will determine what you will be spending. $15,000 is quite a lot of money, but if you have it then go for it. Steppers have really good stall and slow speed torque which is useful at all price points so they can be on high-end devices too. They can be run closed loop in a servo system as well and it's also not uncommon to get a motor with both an encoder and a gearbox attached. Servo systems can use any type of motor for their motion. You're right on when you say to pick a machine that matches your needs as everyone has different preferences. Mine conflict, low cost, small enough to fit in the garage, residential power, less than half a ton but totally awesome specs like all the commercial machines that weigh tons and require 3-phase power and reinforced floors. ldbecker, it does look like you've been searching and have found a variety of vendors out there.
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 9, 2019 13:18:31 GMT -5
stevem and @fean - this is helpful... I am not entirely convinced of the 30-40% price differential between stepper-based CNC machines and servo-based machines. AND I'm reading that servos require some calibration from time to time - that is something I haven't even read about how to do. I am concerned that I would be buying into a much more expensive system, and getting myself in more trouble than I want to deal with. Also, one article I read quoted a quite low service life on servos. That surprised me, and I don't know if it's really true. Since by far most users of CNCs on my level (not in it for just the money) go for stepper machines, that is likely where the most support would be, and they would be easier/cheaper to maintain. And I'd only have to sell ONE kidney to get a stepper-based machine...
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Post by stevem on Jan 9, 2019 16:07:01 GMT -5
If you decide to get a Elete with 4th axis and laser, it's probably more like a kidney and a half LOL
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 6:36:01 GMT -5
stevem and @fean - this is helpful... I am not entirely convinced of the 30-40% price differential between stepper-based CNC machines and servo-based machines. AND I'm reading that servos require some calibration from time to time - that is something I haven't even read about how to do. I am concerned that I would be buying into a much more expensive system, and getting myself in more trouble than I want to deal with. Also, one article I read quoted a quite low service life on servos. That surprised me, and I don't know if it's really true. Since by far most users of CNCs on my level (not in it for just the money) go for stepper machines, that is likely where the most support would be, and they would be easier/cheaper to maintain. And I'd only have to sell ONE kidney to get a stepper-based machine... I think you'd be better looking at it from a different perspective. For servos think professional, they actually do regular maintenance and care about accuracy and repeatability over time so yes they check calibration. While for steppers think hobby and "um, the dimensions are close enough" and "oh, I never checked" are common phrases. If you want to hold the same levels over time you should do lots of maintenance and do backlash/tramming checks/adjustments too.
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grg
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Post by grg on Jan 11, 2019 8:50:55 GMT -5
I'm a robotics engineer and I'm not familiar with the need to calibrate servos. I think maybe this is being confused with some finite overall calibration of the equipment as a whole? A servo is not all that functionally different from a stepper - it just has more complex control system with the ability to detect and make up for finite accuracy errors. The rotational distance a servo travels with one pulse is always the same - there's no way to calibrate it that I'm aware of.
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 13, 2019 0:15:44 GMT -5
Another newbie question - on the Elite models (or Pro+), do you have to set the spindle speed manually, or can you program that into VCarve Pro? That is, tell the software that if you're using a 1/2" end mill, the spindle speed is 18k? It would be great if the spindle speed was controlled by the software - or is it a goofy question?
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Post by vintage on Jan 13, 2019 1:59:59 GMT -5
I don't know about the Elite but with the Pro+ you have to set spindle speed from the machine itself.
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Post by stevem on Jan 13, 2019 10:29:47 GMT -5
The spindle speed is set at the machine while you're making the cut. That way you have the ability to make adjustments on the fly. You can adjust the feed rate on the pendant. When you create a project, you can set your feed rate at whatever you want and then make an adjustment whenever you feel you need to.
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 14, 2019 11:58:25 GMT -5
vintage and stevem - I had been looking at another cnc, which had you input feed rates and spindle speed in the job. The tools could be saved with that info, and adjusted by the job for type of wood and so on as you set up the job, I was assuming that this was the way to go - and it may be. But it’s just another step in the setup of the job... probably not that huge a deal - unless you had an ATC - the. You would want it all preprogrammed by job. Still researching... thanks for all the input!
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johnb
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Post by johnb on Jan 14, 2019 19:06:20 GMT -5
ldbecker
I can see why you'd want that programmed in if you were running a large production run on identical sheets of (consistent quality) stock, but if it's "one or the other", I'll take the pendant based speed & feed any day over having to go back in the file, adjust the speed and/or feed, reload the file, resume the job...rinse & repeat until you get it right, then doing it all again after a bit change. It's a whole different kettle of fish when you're running a file interactively from a computer with a screen that's displaying what's going on in real time, but even the UCCNC approach has these variables adjustable on-screen at run time.
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Post by ldbecker on Jan 15, 2019 14:27:03 GMT -5
johnb In some systems, I believe you can save the bit profile with speed and feed rate settings. One less thing to think about - BUT, I agree that the interactivity is important and maybe for a non-ATC CNC, that would be preferable. I am sure there would be different settings for different woods or materials. Still trying to get my head around this stuff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 9:25:59 GMT -5
Setting up the feed and speed at the computer is the correct place since you have all the software tools and reference information. Having to manually set the spindle speed is error-prone as it's just another thing to do and check when the G-code already has the information and if you're using Desktop Pro or Aspire you can generate a Job Sheet to help you but the less cognitive load and things an operator has to do the less likely for error. I always use a job sheet to check myself and it has saved me from making mistakes a reasonable amount of time. You're busy thinking about what stock, in what order, the bits, clamping, dust collection... etc.
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