309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124 
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 19, 2018 1:35:23 GMT -5
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 19, 2018 1:46:47 GMT -5
traindriver : All confusion aside.... I appreciate your help. Thank you VERY much for taking your time to help me look into my Voodoo..... ;-) I will be @ Axiom in Columbus, OH for the Vectric training class this coming Th&Fr. I think I will have some questions for the guys there..... I am struggling with these facts now: - It is a repeatable problem on my setup (AR2 w/ Bosch PR20 router) - It occurs (as @fean pointed out) where the long swooping vectors meet the triangular clearance vectors - It seems to be minimized when I run it in foam board rather than wood. - Thinking that maybe the Bosch router is junk I switched it out for a DeWalt 611 and got the same (bad) results - You have run it on your AR8 Pro and it comes out clean..... - Is my machine to blame? Hmmmmm......  ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 10:42:21 GMT -5
I don't have that bit and Bosch doesn't specify the tip width. Randomly trying values is not the way to go about it. If you have a set of Vernier calipers you may be able to estimate the tip with the aid of a magnifying glass. Further, you left out that you were using routers. The larger run out of their collets is more likely problem, or your router bearings are shot. You can take the collet apart and clean everything as well as your bit shank and perhaps lower your run out but you'll more likely need a precision collet upgrade, 0.0004" would be reasonable. Your problem and the fix has essentially been confirmed by Traindriver who has tried it with precision collet and better quality bearings. www.precisebits.com/gateways/ColletsNutsHome.htm |
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 19, 2018 11:59:10 GMT -5
Hi @fean. Thanks for your help.
The guys offering the precision collets have stopped offering them for the Bosch router because they say the run-out on even factory new unitsis too bad..... Go figure. That's also why I picked up and tried the DeWalt. Sounds like it has the similar problem though.... :-(
Sorry if I didn't mention the router earlier. I thought I did but I may not have with all the info I tried to include on the various posts....
So I may be limited to work that does not require this type of (expected) accuracy.... Bummer....
I wonder if there is any upgrades to a spindle for my AR2.....
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Post by stevem on Feb 19, 2018 19:39:59 GMT -5
I have a Bosch 1617 EVS and just got a set of collets from Precisebits last week. They work great. I got a 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 kit. I think it was about $128 shipped.
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 19, 2018 20:02:58 GMT -5
stevem : Yes, sorry, I should have been a little more specific.... The Bosch PR20 Palm Router (https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/palm-routers-pr20evs-195774-p/) is no longer supported. Larger ones, such as the 1600 Series are apparently built much better and collets for those are available. The issue is that the mount on my AR2 has a hole for a Bosch PR20 with a mounting diameter of 71mm. I used a thin shim to run the Dewalt DWP611 (around 69.5mm dia) but no improvement. I guess they are not much, if any better, than the Bosch.... I have to conclude from all the help I have been getting here on this forum that the (radial) play of these routers is excessive (at least compared to what I expected) and I am fighting a losing battle....  . It could be the bearings or how the bearings are mounted in the (plastic) housing... Either way, the router bit obviously moves sideways a lot more than it should... I guess there is still a small possibility that the AR2 could be at fault as well but I expect these $100 routers to be much more suspect.... So I wonder what my options are down to.....? A true 'spindle' upgrade that has a mounting diameter less than 71mm....? Not sure what to do right now...... 
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Post by traindriver on Feb 19, 2018 20:33:51 GMT -5
Dang! I hate that you are having such problems.  I had a thought: which do you cut first, the pocket or the V carve? If you cut the pocket first, try cutting the V-carve first, since the female part turns out okay. It could be that if the pocket is cut first, there is no support on one side, allowing the bit to wander due to runout issues. Also, Don't forget, you have a machine tool - a machine capable of making parts for itself. You can probably use the Axiom to make something to hold the bigger router spindle. Something else to look at: a few people on the forum have had issues with their axes not being tight, so you might want to browse some of the more recent (Jan-Feb) threads and see what issues they had and check the places they checked. Also, sadly, there is no upgrade from Axiom, however, there is a fairly recent post about someone who bought a spindle kit for $300-$400 if faulty memory serves, and installed it himself. |
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Post by traindriver on Feb 19, 2018 20:46:48 GMT -5
I had another thought: Since the anomalies occur where two curves join, it could be that the missing material from the V-carve allowed the spindle to move. I wonder if you ran the job twice in a row if it would clean up? There wouldn't be any side pressure from uncut material except the small amount left at the anomalies from the first cut. To cut down on machining time, perhaps you could do just the letters with issues on the 2nd cut. Might be worth a shot.
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 19, 2018 21:13:34 GMT -5
traindriver : Lots of ideas, thx! I had ran my file earlier this afternoon after removing the dust shoe. I had noticed that the shoe for this machine has lots and lots of bristles and I was trying to make sure that compressing / moving them when the router comes down does not cause any issues. So I still had the board clamped down and I am running it again right now to see if, as you wondered, it may clean up. Stay tuned.... As far as running V-Carve vs. Pocket first to eliminate side support issues..... In an effort to save time, I have not run the pocket paths at all in the last 20 or so attempts. Only the V-carve path..... I'll research your other ideas (making parts, axes not tight, spindle kits) as time allows. As always, appreciate your thoughts.....
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 19, 2018 21:57:18 GMT -5
Well..... how about that....! Not perfect but definitely better. Tried to do it justice with the pictures below but the difference is actually bigger than what it looks like here. Thank you traindriver for the idea......!  Do I consider this the final solution? No, probably not. But this quality of cut will produce a much better (lines will be less jagged) inlay than what I had before. |
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 20, 2018 10:46:02 GMT -5
oops....
Just realized, I have been using the wrong model number talking about my machine. I have been incorrectly calling it an AR'2' while it really should have been AR'1'. Sorry....
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Post by stevem on Feb 20, 2018 11:23:11 GMT -5
Looks like you got it figured out! Running the toolpath twice worked out.
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Post by traindriver on Feb 20, 2018 23:44:08 GMT -5
Just got back from a woodworking class at Mann Tools in Columbia SC and I wanted to share this:  This is the router they had on the CNC Shark they sell. Don't know that it's any better than Bosch or DeWalt, but that's what they were using. Glad to see you got usable results, even if it's not exactly the desired method. |
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309cnc
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by 309cnc on Feb 21, 2018 0:14:39 GMT -5
thanks for sharing that router info....
Heading to Columbus tomorrow night for the class on Thursday and Friday. Curious what the guys at Axiom may have to say / add....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 11:02:42 GMT -5
The Dewalt 611 is better than the Bosch in that the lower bearings are in an aluminum housing for better heat removal as compared to the Bosch having a plastic housing. But at the same time, buried in the Dewalt manual it states that the unit only lasts 100 hours, after that you need to send it for factory maintenance for service to replace the brushes as they are not user serviceable. Personally, I think $100 for a tool that lasts 100 hours means the tool costs $1/hr which sucks and the brushes, if they last such a short period, should be user replaceable. Something that lasts 100 hours for a CNC machine is far too short so maybe they really think it should be a disposable trim router.
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Post by redwood on Feb 22, 2018 15:00:43 GMT -5
I have both the Bosch and Dewalt palm routers. Though not in a CNC machine. I prefer the DeWalt, but I can't really see either of these even approaching the work that my spindle can.
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Post by traindriver on Feb 22, 2018 17:44:12 GMT -5
Since I had the male part done, i went ahead and finished it. Didn't have enough clamp pressure around the y, though.  |
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?
. It could be the bearings or how the bearings are mounted in the (plastic) housing... Either way, the router bit obviously moves sideways a lot more than it should...
I had a thought: which do you cut first, the pocket or the V carve? If you cut the pocket first, try cutting the V-carve first, since the female part turns out okay. It could be that if the pocket is cut first, there is no support on one side, allowing the bit to wander due to runout issues. Also, Don't forget, you have a machine tool - a machine capable of making parts for itself. You can probably use the Axiom to make something to hold the bigger router spindle. Something else to look at: a few people on the forum have had issues with their axes not being tight, so you might want to browse some of the more recent (Jan-Feb) threads and see what issues they had and check the places they checked. Also, sadly, there is no upgrade from Axiom, however, there is a fairly recent post about someone who bought a spindle kit for $300-$400 if faulty memory serves, and installed it himself. 
