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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 5, 2023 0:35:35 GMT -5
Hi, I'm a new registered user of this forum. I would like to try to buy a CNC I2R A23 (machine equal to the Axiom Ar6 pro.), but after reading the various discussions I have doubts. I have read in this forum many discussions of possible problems encountered in the use of the cnc. In this regard, I would like to ask if these CNCs are reliable or if they cause many of the problems I read. What if you bought the car again? Thank you
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Post by joeblow on Feb 6, 2023 18:21:46 GMT -5
What if you bought the car again? I would definitely buy the same car again. This Spring will be 5yrs on an AR6Pro with minimal problems. Backed by a reachable, like actual human being, support staff that genuinely wants their purchasers to be successful on these machines. Heck yeah! A well built rigid machine that has performed consistently and accurately for me. As I heard prior to my purchase….Buy your 2nd machine first. Axiom fits that well. I mostly consider myself a hobbyist/sidejobber with this machine. It has payed for itself but is not my main source of income. For that purpose I would need 3x the machine at a much larger cost.
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toddd
New Member
Posts: 62
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Post by toddd on Feb 6, 2023 20:17:25 GMT -5
I'd buy it too, 3rd year on AR8Pro V5, machine is capable of much more than I have used for so far,
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Post by savannahdan on Feb 8, 2023 13:08:49 GMT -5
I purchased a cheaper cnc for my first one and had problems with it and in particular service from the company that made it. I was able to buy a demo Axiom Pro 8 and haven't worried about the past. It has been very dependable and has done what I needed. I've used it for planing rough lumber, doing v-carve projects and 3d projects. I don't have 4th axis capability so I can't speak to that. My axiom has a 2x4 footprint and most of my jobs have been under that. I use Vectric's Aspire program and it makes projects easy and creates the toolpaths needs for my Axiom cnc. My unit came with the extremely solid stand and toolbox offered by Axiom. I have grounded the unit and tied it to my dust collector which has an inline Dust Genie. I find the Axiom Proboard Forum and Vectric Forum very valuable and worth the time and effort. The fun part about a CNC isn't just the end product you can get but the use of your noodle to do it. I had one glitch in which I reached out to Axiom and they responded very quickly. To that point, don't expect to have a problem happen at midnight on a Friday and expect to get an answer from them over the weekend. Good luck.
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Neil
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by Neil on Feb 8, 2023 13:37:35 GMT -5
I bought a hammer and every time I hit my thumb I wonder if I should buy a new hammer. I have had my AR8 Pro for years and it has been a source of joy and education. CNC work is complex, these machines are capable and the learning curve is steep. Stick with an Axiom and you will rarely blame the machine for an issue. Support is beyond reproach, forums are wonderful and full or professional and experience CNC'ers. Also remember that those that complain about a machine are part of the problem, don't listen to everything you read and hear.
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pedro
New Member
Posts: 84
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Post by pedro on Feb 16, 2023 13:50:00 GMT -5
2 years and never had a real issue...all "learning" issues (ie user error). It is a great machine, built as a tank. Love it.
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 17, 2023 1:06:42 GMT -5
I have heard testimonials from a user who had serious problems with this machine, basically advised me against buying it. To him, with his hardwood inlay work, the CNC completely warped, completely replaced the flatbed and all the motors, he also told me that the parts are very cheap. He directed me to other brands of CNC. I noticed that the linear guides that support the entire bridge are fixed under the two aluminum crosspieces of only 40 mm thickness outermost of the top, which are in turn screwed to the steel structure only by 8 screws. Since the aluminum crosspieces are not supported by a steel top, it seems strange to me that the machine is robust and precise, as it works in cantilever, which is why the top is deformed for that user, he will surely have pushed the machine to the limits yes, but still the technical choice of the CNC does not convince me. The top must be one with the structure in order for the entire machine to be stable and robust.
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Post by joeblow on Feb 17, 2023 4:57:30 GMT -5
Appears to me that you were not entirely forthcoming in your initial post as your mind has already been made up regarding which “car” to buy. So the user you spoke with purchased an F150 and worked it like an F350 Super Duty until it broke and then complained about it. Spend the 35k+ and have no regrets or purchase the sub-10k model and drive it within its means.
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Post by dadealeus on Feb 17, 2023 14:31:01 GMT -5
I have heard testimonials from a user who had serious problems with this machine, basically advised me against buying it. To him, with his hardwood inlay work, the CNC completely warped, completely replaced the flatbed and all the motors, he also told me that the parts are very cheap. He directed me to other brands of CNC. I noticed that the linear guides that support the entire bridge are fixed under the two aluminum crosspieces of only 40 mm thickness outermost of the top, which are in turn screwed to the steel structure only by 8 screws. Since the aluminum crosspieces are not supported by a steel top, it seems strange to me that the machine is robust and precise, as it works in cantilever, which is why the top is deformed for that user, he will surely have pushed the machine to the limits yes, but still the technical choice of the CNC does not convince me. The top must be one with the structure in order for the entire machine to be stable and robust. I think, all-in-all, joe is absolutely correct that your friend needs to use the machine within its tolerances. The machine should 100% be capable of performing the tasks that were required by your friend who was working with hard woods, but perhaps simply at a slower speed than he wanted. It's like the triangle with the 3 points (fast, cheap, powerful) where you can only pick two. If you want fast and powerful, it won't be cheap (professional). If you want fast and cheap, it won't be powerful (hobby), and if you want cheap and powerful, it won't be fast (mid). I've used my AR8 for many years without any physical issues beyond normal wear and year. I've cut everything from wood (oak, walnut, maple, pine, balsa), to plastics (HDPE, HDU, PVC), to metals (brass, aluminum, copper), and have not had any issues beyond learning the correct feeds and speeds for the materials and my machine. If you're fully aware of the work you're primarily going to be performing on the machine and the speed at which it needs to be performed, and you're concerned that a machine in the $5000-$10000 range is not going to be sufficient, then I would say that you likely need to start looking into the range of a more industrial-level machine versus these - which I would call "consumer level". That's not a knock against this machine, however. There are plenty of other machines that I'd classify as "hobby level" (the Shapeoko, for example) - but those are going to mostly be belt-driven with hand-held routers driving the bits. So, a lot of chatter unless you're running at exceptionally slow speeds. These machines were (and probably still are) the most affordable option I was able to find that ran full ball-screws with steel framing and a water-cooled spindle. Yes, you can certainly overburden them and damage them, just like any machine, but you're likely not going to find better value for your dollar within this range of machine. Just my opinion.
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Post by aluomala on Feb 17, 2023 22:50:59 GMT -5
I have had a few issues with my two Axiom machines (AR4+Pro that I've had for about 6 years, and AR8+Pro that I've had for 3 or 4 years now). There are a few "weak links" that I have encountered (same problems on both machines), but they are somewhat minor in the big picture.
#1) The "puck" system (tool touchoff to zero z-height) they have is cheap. Very cheap. I have abandoned using it since I destroyed 3 sharp (30 degree scoring bits) in one day due to intermittent wiring issues. The wiring and connections are shoddy, and it seems most people have replaced EVERYTHING except the puck, to get it to work properly. It reminds me of the saying "This is the best axe I've ever had! I only had to replace the handle 4 times and the head 3 times!"
2) The couplers (that connect the steppers to the drive system). It's not so bad that they break (I broke one in the first month or so of owning my AR4 and I was NOT running it hard (probably babying it, compared to how I run my machines now), but there are no spare couplers included. For international customers, this can be a catastrophic failure, since, if you are relying on getting a replacement from Axiom, it will likely take 7-10 days (shipping, border/customs issues). I (wisely, it turns out) bought a 5 pack off of Amazon BEFORE I received my first machine, so that when my z-axis coupler DID disintegrate, I was able to swap out the broken one for a new one, and was up and running in minutes (the piece was lost, since I wasn't able to get the z-axis back to where it should be, but at least I could start working on the replacement piece of wood immediately, not having to wait for a week or so for a $5 part. IMO, these are the equivalent of a fan belt (for machinery) and one should have at least one spare on hand, if not more. It would be nice if Axiom included at least one when they ship out the machines, since you can't just pop into big box hardware store to find one.
3) Some of the ancillary equipment (LED light strips, rotary (4th axis) kit, dust boots) aren't manufactured to the same standards IMO as the main machine/components. The "3M (yeah, right) adhesive" on the LED kits is of abysmal quality. On BOTH of my machines I installed them right out of the crate (brand new machine), following recommendations (alcohol swipes to clean off grease, etc) and lasted about a day.... maybe. I had to use epoxy to adhere it. In my opinion, they should install a light strip right at the factory (ie stock equipment), using a better system (maybe insert the light strip in aluminum extrusion and then have it affixed permanently to the underside of the gantry. I wouldn't say the light is essential, but it does come in handy (good visual indicator (from a distance) that the machine is powered on) and the cost of LED lights is continuing to drop. The rotary attachment is quite rugged, but it has some quality control issues (I have 2 rotary attachments) such as connection fittings not working, the bolts provided were too short (by about 1mm) so I had to purchase some of those to get it to work, and frankly, an underpowered stepper motor (that spins the rotary axis). I have vented about this in other posts, so I'll limit my comments to stating that you don't get a lot of value for the money for the attachment. In theory, it should be a real gamechanger, but it's basically a toy (with the specifications it has now) since you can't be very aggressive with your toolpaths. "Babying the machine" is how I would put it.
With all that said, I would buy another Axiom product (likely Elite series) if I had to replace one of my machines, or I was expanding. For all the negative comments that you may read here (Axiom forum), go read the forums/FB groups for the competitors (Laguna, etc) and you will see similar stories, but the usual bottom line with Axiom customers is that, when they reached out for assistance from Axiom (Chad et al), they got help that got them up and running ASAP. Not some random overseas time zone issue (unless, of course, you live overseas from Axiom HQ....) or voicemail hell. I've only had to reach out a few times (mostly email), and I received prompt service, so if you're in a bind, you know that you'll get back up and running right away.
Allan
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 18, 2023 7:50:16 GMT -5
I would like to receive opinions on the fixing system of the linear guides of the Y axis. The method of fixing the guides directly under the two outermost aluminum crosspieces does not convince me. Do you think this system is synonymous with robustness and precision?
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Post by gerry on Feb 18, 2023 13:00:50 GMT -5
Huh??
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zaxis4
Junior Member
Posts: 162
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Post by zaxis4 on Feb 18, 2023 14:53:34 GMT -5
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Post by dadealeus on Feb 18, 2023 17:03:47 GMT -5
I would like to receive opinions on the fixing system of the linear guides of the Y axis. The method of fixing the guides directly under the two outermost aluminum crosspieces does not convince me. Do you think this system is synonymous with robustness and precision? Our job is not to convince you to buy this machine. You asked for our input and we provided it to you. From what I can count in this thread, alone, 6 different people have vouched for this machine versus your single user who advised you to look elsewhere. If you'd rather take the input of a single user over 6 other people, then why are you here? Just purchase a different machine.
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 19, 2023 1:07:58 GMT -5
I apologize if I can't make myself understood. I did the translation through google. I wanted an opinion on the sliding system of the Y axis guides. I noticed that they are fixed under the aluminum table of the CNC. Now this aluminum table (or rather the two outermost slats) alone hold all the weight of the gantry. In my point of view, this technical solution is not very valid for guaranteeing precision and solidity of the workmanship, as I think the table will be subject to movement and flex. That's what I thought, maybe I'm wrong. So I would like feedback from you regarding this technical solution adopted by the manufacturer. Is it possible to do 10-hour machining with 7/8 mm removals on hard end grain in a single pass and be sure that the Axiom CNC does not deform, or will I have to do 3 or 4 2mm passes to not destroy the cnc? This is my doubt. I say this because that user makes V-carved inlays on end grain cutting boards and his machine was already deformed the first time it was used.
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Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 129
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Post by Bob on Feb 19, 2023 9:47:45 GMT -5
If you're describing a 5/16" deep pass in hardwood with any bit, it's deeper than I would try on purpose.
I believe that all your issues have been answered clearly in the previous responses. Just take the time to look them over and understand what is being said.
The real question is, What do you plan on making? And, How fast do you plan on making it?
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 19, 2023 11:56:30 GMT -5
I would like to make v-carved inlays on end grain cutting boards with 7/8 mm milling with a single pass to avoid astronomical times in finishing the work, and I ask you if I can make them with this machine?
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Post by Gary Campbell on Feb 19, 2023 12:05:45 GMT -5
You keep rewording your question in hopes of getting your desired answer. Apparently, no user that has read this thread has had a similar experience. 1) your friends experience was an anomaly. His damage was either caused by over use or possibly occurred during shipping 2) very few if any sub $20k non commercial machines are designed to cut at the 7-8mm depth per pass that you mention 3) most non commercial machines, even tho it can happen, are not designed to run ~10 hours uninterrupted. Some with servos can, but most steppers should be rested 40 out of every 100 minutes (recommended duty cycle) 4) would I purchase a machine for commercial use that had the rail to table engineering you describe? No, but I only purchase welded steel machined frames, servo motors and ATC spindles running on commercial grade controllers 5) you mention possibly purchasing another brand that you feel could be better, since most non commercial machines are built to fit price classes, is it in the same price class as the Axiom? Or is a higher duty class offering?
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Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 129
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Post by Bob on Feb 19, 2023 12:12:11 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I answered your question above. I'm conservative and prefer to work within the machines limits, and get excellent results. It also looks like you have answered your own question.
On a side note: I have owned three different cnc machines, and have been completely satisfied with their performance. ..And, with consistent, excellent results.
So, as has been mentioned by others, you will need to invest in a more industrial size machine if you want to make the heavy (5/16") cuts in single passes.
Ask your friend which machine he finally bought, and do the same...
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 19, 2023 12:14:47 GMT -5
Desidero ricevere pareri sul sistema di fissaggio delle guide lineari dell'asse Y. Il metodo di fissaggio delle guide direttamente sotto le due traverse in alluminio più esterne non mi convince. Pensi che questo sistema sia sinonimo di robustezza e precisione? Il nostro lavoro non è convincerti ad acquistare questa macchina. Hai chiesto il nostro contributo e te lo abbiamo fornito. Da quello che posso contare in questo thread, da solo, 6 persone diverse hanno garantito per questa macchina rispetto al tuo singolo utente che ti ha consigliato di cercare altrove. Se preferisci prendere l'input di un singolo utente rispetto ad altre 6 persone, allora perché sei qui? Basta acquistare una macchina diversa. ....I'm here just to try to understand the robustness of this machine, and until now no one has explained to me what I was trying to understand about it. I don't boast of knowing everything about mechanics, but it doesn't take much to suspect that with those technical solutions adopted on the cnc table, the table with the weight of the gantry will bend more in the central area of the table. I would have preferred if the 5 4 cm aluminum slats were supported along their entire length by steel crosspieces welded directly to the machine structure. This is not a criticism of the manufacturer's construction choices, but my humble opinion.
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zaxis4
Junior Member
Posts: 162
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Post by zaxis4 on Feb 19, 2023 12:33:47 GMT -5
...... This makes sense to me. I have had two Axioms. Loved them both and never had an issue with either one. I think they are top quality equipment. Sounds like you want a Bridgeport Mill instead of a CNC router.
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 19, 2023 13:09:49 GMT -5
So with a 1/8" cutter how many passes could I make with the Axiom cnc to reach a depth of 5/16" on end grain hard wood and with what feed rate?
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Post by dadealeus on Feb 20, 2023 14:37:11 GMT -5
So with a 1/8" cutter how many passes could I make with the Axiom cnc to reach a depth of 5/16" on end grain hard wood and with what feed rate? This guy does a lot of what you're talking about, but I think he usually uses maple instead of oak - which is generally considered to be a harder wood than oak: www.youtube.com/@broinwoodSome of his earlier videos used to show his feeds and speeds, but he may have removed them to reduce competition with what he does. Referencing his methods, I was able to make a similar board without many issues. These machines are certainly capable of making these boards as it's the machine he's using in all his videos. If you can't find them there, I would recommend something like GWizard (https://www.cnccookbook.com/g-wizard-feeds-speeds-calculator-mill/). It's a feeds and speeds calculator that lets you pick your material and describe your cutter and it will give a good starting recommendation for what speeds and feeds you should use. They have a free trial and I highly recommend it.
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 20, 2023 14:48:12 GMT -5
...in fact it is to him that the Axiom cnc was deformed. Look, from this video he completely rebuilt it (board, engines etc...)
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Post by dadealeus on Feb 20, 2023 15:58:56 GMT -5
...in fact it is to him that the Axiom cnc was deformed. Look, from this video he completely rebuilt it (board, engines etc...) I can see that he made modifications to his machine, but he also made countless projects with the machine in its native configuration. He obviously does this for a living and likely pushed the machine to work as quickly as it could to maximize his profit and ended up damaging it. This all goes back to our original comments - use the machine within its tolerances. He obviously did for quite some time as he has over 50 published videos of the machine in its default state before he made his modifications. He must have eventually made a mistake or pushed the machine too hard and damaged it - requiring the repairs. The "failures" you say he cites are obviously not bad enough for him to purchase a different machine and with 83k subscribers while selling those boards at $500+ per board, he could certainly afford a different machine, so he can't have that much to complain about.
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 20, 2023 16:15:33 GMT -5
he told me that it was deformed immediately, and advised me to move towards the stepcraft cnc or Avid. I was intending to buy the I2R-A23 cnc (practically the same machine as the Axiom Ar6 but with the control PC) but after these warnings from the guy I held back in buying this cnc, also because I would like to do the same machining as him. Surely he exaggerated in the milling and pushed the machine beyond its limits.
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Post by dadealeus on Feb 20, 2023 16:26:33 GMT -5
he told me that it was deformed immediately, and advised me to move towards the stepcraft cnc or Avid. I was intending to buy the I2R-A23 cnc (practically the same machine as the Axiom Ar6 but with the control PC) but after these warnings from the guy I held back in buying this cnc, also because I would like to do the same machining as him. Surely he exaggerated in the milling and pushed the machine beyond its limits. Stepcraft machines are great, too, but their X-axis is subject to deformation/chatter due to the thin nature of the supports (the vertical supports that hold up the entire gantry system) - which is why I chose with the Axiom machine and it's much thicker supports for the gantry. As previously stated, there is no "perfect machine". You just have to work within the machine's constraints. If you're willing to spend more and handle assembly you might want to look into an Avid machine. I'd consider them to be at the base end of the professional machines. You could go with their cheaper machines, but you need to factor in the cost of all the additional components as well. For example, their base kit for the machine I purchased is only around 8k, but after all the components I purchased (spindle, steppers, controllers, etc.) I spent $27k on it. Granted, I did purchase it maxed-out; Avid PRO60120 5' x 10' CNC with the 8.7hp spindle and NEMA 34 motors. It's a beast, but it's also 4-5x the cost of the AR8 Pro I purchased from Axiom. So, again, you get what you pay for. It's also worth noting that the Avid machine is rack and pinion driven, not ballscrew, so you're going to have slightly less accuracy in the cuts. It's small, but it's worth noting. I still use the Axiom machine for smaller footprint projects because it's easier to set up and still works great. I only really bought the Avid machine to handle sheet-based goods (4'x8' sheets of plywood) because Axiom does not offer a machine in that size.
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Post by andreaitaly on Feb 20, 2023 23:03:40 GMT -5
Ok, thanks for the explanation, I totally agree with you. It is clear that you have to stay within the limits of the machine, but what are these limits of the Axiom? I would like to understand, to make removals of 7-8 mm (5/16") how many passes should I make with a 1/8" bit and what feed rate should I make? given that for that user to make a single removal pass, his machine met a bad end.
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Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 129
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Post by Bob on Feb 21, 2023 8:13:09 GMT -5
A general recommendation for depth of cut is one half the diameter of the bit. Half the diameter of a 1/8" bit is 1/16". It would take 5 passes to reach a depth of 5/16". Since I am a home hobbyist, the extra time is no problem for me. Also, with a larger bit, I would use even less depth of cut than half the diameter.
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Post by dadealeus on Feb 21, 2023 15:10:19 GMT -5
Ok, thanks for the explanation, I totally agree with you. It is clear that you have to stay within the limits of the machine, but what are these limits of the Axiom? I would like to understand, to make removals of 7-8 mm (5/16") how many passes should I make with a 1/8" bit and what feed rate should I make? given that for that user to make a single removal pass, his machine met a bad end. I generally agree with what Bob said. However, I also know that with a 1/8" bit, the bit would very easily snap off before the machine or bed would warp in any way. I know this, because I've done it countless times while experimenting with different feeds and speeds for various materials. I've even broken a couple of 1/4" bits clean off with my Axiom machine as well. I suppose it's possible that if you had very little stickout on a 1/4" bit and cut a tough material literally to where the end of your spindle is almost touching the surface of that material, you may be able to cause damage to the machine if it were to bind up, but I'm not sure. As for your question, directly, I actually use some 1/8" 2-flute compression bits in 3/4" birch plywood that I can cut in a single pass. It admittedly causes some deflection in the bit, and I've broken quite a few bits by hitting knots in the wood, but it's possible to do (and was more of a challenge to see if I could do it). According to the internet, solid woods are generally harder than plywood of the same type, but I suppose it's theoretically possible to cut a 5/16" in a single pass using that same, 1/8" 2-flute compression bit. I can't remember the feeds and speeds I used to do it, but here's a video of a guy doing something similar with a 1/8" single-flute compression cutter in 3/4" plywood: He was running at 50-60 IPM @ 16,000 RPM and is using an Avid CNC, but I reproduced his results on my Axiom without issues as those parameters are well within the Axiom machine's specifications. Just be careful if you purchase bits from his amazon links; those are 2-flutes, not the 1-flute cutters he got from EBay. You're going to need different feeds/speeds for the 2-flute version than what he's using here.
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