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Post by aussie on Oct 17, 2018 20:00:00 GMT -5
hi all, first post.... I am about to purchase...do you recommend AR pro 4 6 or 8? Would I regret buying a smaller unit in the future as my skills increase. my use is hobbyist and not looking for a commercial use.
appreciate and advice.
thanks Ron
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Post by aluomala on Oct 17, 2018 20:28:17 GMT -5
I think you have to factor in a few things: 1) real estate that the bigger machines take up, 2) budget... bigger costs more and 3) likely uses for machine. If you don't plan on doing projects over 2' x 2' (60cm x 60cm), you can stick with the smaller machine (and save money and space). Even if you want to make bigger projects, you can tile the project in the y-axis.
I have the AR4, and I do primarily 3D carving, so at the largest capacity, I am looking at 30+ hours of machining time (between roughing and finishing) per project, so if I had a larger machine, I might be tempted to go too big. If you were to be focusing on basic 2D projects (signs, cutting out pieces to make furniture), you might want to go with a larger machine, but you can still tile using a smaller machine.
The bigger machines don't go any faster, until you go to the Elite series.
Hindsight being 20/20, I think I should have gone with a larger machine (due to the nature of my projects, tiling them isn't really feasible), and there have been a few occasions that I wish I could have gone over 24" in the y-axis. I am planning on buying a second machine in the near future, so I think I might go with the AR6 or 8, just to have the capacity. I might move up to the Elite series to take advantage of faster speeds, but there is a limit on how fast you can push the machines/bits.
I went into my purchase going from being a hobbyist (I started with ShapeOko2 kit, and then NWA PirahnaFX) wanting to enter the small business/commercial world. They say you should buy your second machine first, so the temptation to avoid the smaller size is somewhat justified, but you do need to consider what you think you will be primarily making with your machine: if the majority (80-90%) is going to be under 2' x 2', go with the smaller machine. But if you think you'll be limited by that size, and you can afford it (real estate and financially) go big.
Hope that helps,
Allan
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Decisions
Oct 17, 2018 21:51:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by seanathan on Oct 17, 2018 21:51:44 GMT -5
hi all, first post.... I am about to purchase...do you recommend AR pro 4 6 or 8? Would I regret buying a smaller unit in the future as my skills increase. my use is hobbyist and not looking for a commercial use. appreciate and advice. thanks Ron If you can afford the bigger machine no problem...then yes you will regret it. But...if you have a tool budget and you could put that money to better use on other equipment then you may not. As you learn to use the machine your projects will grow and you will see opportunities that you arent aware of now. Nobody wishes they had a less capable machine.
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Post by stevem on Oct 17, 2018 21:52:33 GMT -5
I also have a 24x24 machine. So far it has served me well, but I sometimes wish I had a AR6. I use my machine for cutting out parts and it would help me if I had a larger bed for that reason. aluomala is correct! Make sure you know what you intend to make and if you should get a larger machine. Cutting faster only breaks bits, so I don't subscribe to the idea that a larger machine will allow me to cut faster. Even the Elite machine doesn't cut that much faster. The AR4,6 and 8 all can cut at 200 ipm, but you will never go that fast. I tried it a few times and the machine just couldn't handle it so the fast so I cut at is about 150 ipm or slower. Usually at 60-80 ipm. If you use 1/4" end mills only, you will probably break the bits trying to cut at 200 ipm. I have 4 bits I broke in a period of 3 days trying to cut at a higher speed. At $20-$30 a bit, it gets very expensive. To be honest, I read of people cutting at high speeds with 1/4" bits, but I don't know how they really do it.
One other thing to consider!
If you buy a small machine and later decide to go bigger, you will probably take a loss when you try to sell it. It will sell, but not for what you paid for it.
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Post by gerry on Oct 17, 2018 22:29:46 GMT -5
Buy your 2nd machine first. Tiling is doable, but a PITA. It's the last resort. I have an AR8 Pro+. Compared to the use factor I get out of it, it's the most used machine in my shop. I surface plane stuff, it's my jointer, and lots of other stuff. Buy too small, and you'll regret it. Look at the time and money you'll waste trying to correct your mistake.
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Post by aussie on Oct 18, 2018 1:36:20 GMT -5
Thank you all I will go big if I have the space....rather than regret it later. Does anyone know the quality of support in Australia ?
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Post by bauldy on Oct 18, 2018 5:36:16 GMT -5
I am in Aus, and while I have not purchased an Axiom as yet, I hope to in the near future. They are currently sold through Carbatec and I think that the level of support will depend on the knowledge and experience in your local store. I have found a guy in the Adelaide store who seems like he knows CNC very well and reasonable knowledge of the Axiom, as it is only new to them. Importantly though, Barry at BG Precision is the importer and I have had a bit of correspondence with him while researching the machine and he has been extremely knowledgeable and helpful and I suspect will be a good additional level of support. As to your original question, I echo other comments to go with the biggest you can afford and fit. I will probably buy the AR6 as my room is limited. I suspect the AR4 will do just about everything I would want, but would hate to regret it later!
Good luck
Bauldy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 8:13:23 GMT -5
Go with whatever you have space for. Consider it's really just $500 per extra foot of length now. Upgrading later would be that plus another $5K or more depending on how much you can get for your older machine which is typically 40-60% of what you paid for it.
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grg
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Post by grg on Oct 18, 2018 8:33:23 GMT -5
Same thing applies here as building a house (per a good friend of mine who designs and builds houses): "People complain about it being too small, people complain about it being too expensive, nobody complains about it being too big". I have an AR8 and already wish I had a bigger one ;-).
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Post by aussie on Oct 18, 2018 18:16:34 GMT -5
Hi Bauldy fortunately I live in Adelaide and doing my research now, will check out the prices at Carbatec and wish to purchase within the next few weeks.... need to shuffle my shed around a bit to get the 6 or 8 in. Do you know if Axiom or BG provide training in Australia? thanks, Ron I am in Aus, and while I have not purchased an Axiom as yet, I hope to in the near future. They are currently sold through Carbatec and I think that the level of support will depend on the knowledge and experience in your local store. I have found a guy in the Adelaide store who seems like he knows CNC very well and reasonable knowledge of the Axiom, as it is only new to them. Importantly though, Barry at BG Precision is the importer and I have had a bit of correspondence with him while researching the machine and he has been extremely knowledgeable and helpful and I suspect will be a good additional level of support. As to your original question, I echo other comments to go with the biggest you can afford and fit. I will probably buy the AR6 as my room is limited. I suspect the AR4 will do just about everything I would want, but would hate to regret it later! Good luck Bauldy
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Post by bauldy on Oct 19, 2018 5:25:47 GMT -5
I don't believe that any formal course or training is available, however: - A good demonstration of the Axiom should be sufficient to get you started and allow you to undertake some initial projects which will then allow further "self training" to some extent. This assumes you already have a general understanding of CNC principles and operation.
- I believe that most of the learning/training revolves around the software you propose to use. I intend to go with Vectric V Carve, which while relatively expensive, is best for me for a range of reasons. Vectric have an extensive range of online tutorials which are very good. I have already downloaded the Trial version of the software to play with and the Vectric Forum also has extensive information. - Fergal, the CNC guy at Carbatec Adelaide runs a CNC at home and will probably provide ongoing support into the use of the Axiom and CNC generally (You may have to occasionally buy something from the store!). - This Forum obviously provides good feedback and information on the Axiom range, software and CNC in general. - I met the guy who bought the first Axiom in Adelaide, on the launch evening, and he talked about setting up a local user group, which will be useful if it can happen.
Finally, and on a different matter, if you have primarily been researching online, be aware that the Axiom in Australia does not have the Pendant which is seen in the US model and mentioned on the forum, and you must have the CNC connected to a computer the whole machining time. Not a major issue, but I did not realise until I attended a demo.
Regards
Bauldy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 9:13:05 GMT -5
I don't believe that any formal course or training is available, however: - A good demonstration of the Axiom should be sufficient to get you started and allow you to undertake some initial projects which will then allow further "self training" to some extent. This assumes you already have a general understanding of CNC principles and operation. - I believe that most of the learning/training revolves around the software you propose to use. I intend to go with Vectric V Carve, which while relatively expensive, is best for me for a range of reasons. Vectric have an extensive range of online tutorials which are very good. I have already downloaded the Trial version of the software to play with and the Vectric Forum also has extensive information. - Fergal, the CNC guy at Carbatec Adelaide runs a CNC at home and will probably provide ongoing support into the use of the Axiom and CNC generally (You may have to occasionally buy something from the store!). - This Forum obviously provides good feedback and information on the Axiom range, software and CNC in general. - I met the guy who bought the first Axiom in Adelaide, on the launch evening, and he talked about setting up a local user group, which will be useful if it can happen. Finally, and on a different matter, if you have primarily been researching online, be aware that the Axiom in Australia does not have the Pendant which is seen in the US model and mentioned on the forum, and you must have the CNC connected to a computer the whole machining time. Not a major issue, but I did not realise until I attended a demo. Regards Bauldy Does it use Mach 3/4 or UCCNC? I actually prefer the large computer screen, easy input and lots of feedback that's large enough to read.
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Post by aussie on Oct 19, 2018 21:19:50 GMT -5
I don't believe that any formal course or training is available, however: - A good demonstration of the Axiom should be sufficient to get you started and allow you to undertake some initial projects which will then allow further "self training" to some extent. This assumes you already have a general understanding of CNC principles and operation. - I believe that most of the learning/training revolves around the software you propose to use. I intend to go with Vectric V Carve, which while relatively expensive, is best for me for a range of reasons. Vectric have an extensive range of online tutorials which are very good. I have already downloaded the Trial version of the software to play with and the Vectric Forum also has extensive information. - Fergal, the CNC guy at Carbatec Adelaide runs a CNC at home and will probably provide ongoing support into the use of the Axiom and CNC generally (You may have to occasionally buy something from the store!). - This Forum obviously provides good feedback and information on the Axiom range, software and CNC in general. - I met the guy who bought the first Axiom in Adelaide, on the launch evening, and he talked about setting up a local user group, which will be useful if it can happen. Finally, and on a different matter, if you have primarily been researching online, be aware that the Axiom in Australia does not have the Pendant which is seen in the US model and mentioned on the forum, and you must have the CNC connected to a computer the whole machining time. Not a major issue, but I did not realise until I attended a demo. Regards Bauldy
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Post by bauldy on Oct 20, 2018 5:44:53 GMT -5
It is UCCNC. While I am not aware of all of the reasons, the Australian importer advised that he had specified our machines in this configuration for the reasons suggested by Fean, that the Pendant was limited and there was much more data and functionality available from the computer with screen being available during machining.
I did like the idea of keeping my computer inside, out of the dust, and just transferring data with a USB, but have to accept the advice that this is the best option.
The importer has advised that he can modify the machines to use the pendant if required.
Bauldy
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ronm
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Post by ronm on Oct 20, 2018 9:35:09 GMT -5
Buy the biggest machine you can afford because the resale value to move up is horrible, at best 50%. Like most things over capacity is much better than under capacity.
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Post by redwood on Oct 22, 2018 12:30:21 GMT -5
I can't even imagine having my computer in my shop. If I have figured everything out correctly using the software in my office, I see no reason to have anything more in my shop then a controller and a USB drive.
I have a AR6 and sometimes wish that I had gotten a AR8, though for 80% of what I do, a AR4 would have been fine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 7:59:19 GMT -5
It is UCCNC. While I am not aware of all of the reasons, the Australian importer advised that he had specified our machines in this configuration for the reasons suggested by Fean, that the Pendant was limited and there was much more data and functionality available from the computer with screen being available during machining. I did like the idea of keeping my computer inside, out of the dust, and just transferring data with a USB, but have to accept the advice that this is the best option. The importer has advised that he can modify the machines to use the pendant if required. Bauldy For the shop, I use a tablet convertible PC so it doesn't have a fan and can't take in dust and the touch screen is useful too. The whole thing is sealed, with an SSD so no moving parts and it cleans up with a wipe down.
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Post by bauldy on Oct 24, 2018 20:35:10 GMT -5
Thanks Fean, that is a great option and while not currently a tablet user, I will look into it.
Bauldy
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Post by stevem on Oct 24, 2018 21:01:30 GMT -5
If you intend to use the tablet idea, you should wrap a piece of clear plastic over the keyboard so dust doesn't clog up the keys. The stuff you use in the kitchen will be fine.
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Decisions
Nov 2, 2018 12:17:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by JohnnyBeWood on Nov 2, 2018 12:17:47 GMT -5
I keep an old extra laptop in my shop to be able to make changes fast and easy to my files then plug the us back into the controller.
I was considering an AR6 at first but went for the AR8. I spent a lot of time researching CNCs for the Hobbyist. I looked at CAM Master, Laguna, and some of the chinese ones. For what you can buy an AR8 for you could get a 4x8 Chinese model with a 4th axis and vacuum pump. They also use USB file transfer.
My only reservation is that most of them used helical rack and pinion for the x and y axis, not to mention you may need some knowledge of CNCs to be able to troubleshoot. People generally bsay troubleshooting is usually required on these models.
The Axiom got you more for the money than the CamMaster, and the Laguna only comes in a 2x3 and uses the bucket method for water cooling.
You could also consider the powermatic version since it's the same as an AR8. If you plan on getting the stand and toolbox, the Powermatic version is only about $500 more and you get a 5 year warranty.
I made my own stand and got a $30 toolbox from Lowe's.
Good luck!
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Post by bauldy on Nov 2, 2018 22:42:50 GMT -5
I did look into Powermatic, but unfortunately they are not imported into Australia. While we do get some of the Powermatic range, I believe the cost of obtaining electrical compliance has meant that they are unlikely to bring in low volume sales items such as their CNC.
I also considered Chinese, but having read many posts about the various issues, I have decided that I do not want to get that deep into solving them and am prepared to pay for both the quality and importantly, the service and support that the Chinese machines do not have.
Otherwise a good alternative for some people.
Regards
Bauldy
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Post by aussie on Nov 3, 2018 0:44:35 GMT -5
Ok taking the plunge on Tuesday ... have a demo of the AR Pro lined and and expect to order following the demo. I will order the AR 6 with stand and tool chest along with the dust shoe and some hold downs. My question is the 8 piece router set a good place to start my learning journey ?
Thanks Ron
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Post by bauldy on Nov 3, 2018 5:36:34 GMT -5
I will also be interested in these replies. Beware though that the 8 Piece set sold with US models is made by Amana, and I believe has a very good reputation. In Australia they have chosen not to supply the Amana set, but have sourced their own 8 Piece set, just branded as Axiom, so only those in Aus who have this set can advise on its quality.
As for the contents of the set, my research suggests that they will all be useful, if not key to most operations, so I think that part is right. It is effectively the same bits as the Amana set. I have not yet purchased my CNC yet, and am still researching until the time is right, so will be interested in the opinion of actual users.
Bauldy
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Post by uzumati on Nov 3, 2018 16:37:38 GMT -5
The 8 piece set from axiom in the US has been very useful. I can’t think of a single piece that doesn’t get used. They have been very durable also having “modified” the hold downs with the .25” end mill a few times when first getting started it is still sharp after 6 months and cuts very well. One of my favorites is the 1.5” bottom cleaner, I use it all the time to level live edge slabs.
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Decisions
Nov 3, 2018 22:01:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by JohnnyBeWood on Nov 3, 2018 22:01:16 GMT -5
Ok taking the plunge on Tuesday ... have a demo of the AR Pro lined and and expect to order following the demo. I will order the AR 6 with stand and tool chest along with the dust shoe and some hold downs. My question is the 8 piece router set a good place to start my learning journey ? Thanks Ron I went with this to get started. Comes with a $50 gift card. I bought my machine at a time when the Amana 3 piece set came free with it also. www.rockler.com/freud-87-108-8-piece-signmaking-cnc-router-bit-set-1-4-shank-with-free-50-gift-cardMost of the bits are still sharp. Now I just buy them all on eBay. You can get 5 for the price of 1 Amana, they cut well but only last about half as long. Your still ahead in the end. Search for the user drillman1
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Post by stevem on Nov 4, 2018 10:40:27 GMT -5
My use of cheaper bits is just when you are about finished with a project, the bit breaks or starts to tear the wood out and you have to start all over again. In some cases, I use them for cutting out pieces that I know will need sanding once the part is cut out. No problem there. It's always important to use the sharpest bit you have when starting your project. Just a few weeks ago, I had been using Whiteside 1/4" upcut endmills. For no reason, they started breaking just cutting out Select Pine. I feed and speeds had not changed at all. I broke 4 bits in 2 days after only cutting out about 15 - 20 pieces. I just started using CMT 1/4" upcut and have cut out 60 of the same pieces and have not had one of the bits break. I have been using the Whiteside bits for a long time and never had one break, just wore them out. I tried contacting Whiteside, but they never responded after 3 attempts to contact them. I also at that time uses a bit by STS off Ebay and it lasted longer than the Whiteside but still broke sooner than I think it should have. They were about $17 each so not really much less than a name brand. My first set of bits were a set of Freud from Rockler for $149 with a $50 gift card. I still have the entire set and the 1/4" upcut still cuts, but it's starting to get dull. I also clean the bits often so there isn't any gunk on them. I use Simple Green and just let them soak in the stuff for a day or so and then just use a brass brush to clean them off. I also use it to clean my table saw blades. The stuff works great. You just never know about bits. Trial and error is probably our best teacher.
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Post by bauldy on Nov 7, 2018 20:40:57 GMT -5
Hey Aussie, did you take the plunge?
I was heading to Carbatec last Tuesday for some parts, but found them elsewhere first so never made it.
If you did order one, let me know if you need a hand lifting for assembly at all.
Depending how far away you are, I should be available if I can be useful.
Regards
Bauldy
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Post by aussie on Nov 8, 2018 22:58:47 GMT -5
Hey Aussie, did you take the plunge? I was heading to Carbatec last Tuesday for some parts, but found them elsewhere first so never made it. If you did order one, let me know if you need a hand lifting for assembly at all. Depending how far away you are, I should be available if I can be useful. Regards Bauldy Yep placed my order on Wednesday after the demo. $14K later I have a piece of paper...haha ..... it is one big mother!!! making space in my shed now. Purchased V Carve Pro from them as well...went to install the software from the USB drive and the file is corrupted ... will address this when I return. I will be in the USA next week so will arrange delivery when I get back. Thank you for the offer of assistance....may just take you up on this.... I live in the Adelaide Hills area. May ask Fergal from Carbatec to set up the unit for me.
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Post by bauldy on Nov 9, 2018 1:04:23 GMT -5
You should be able to download the software from the Vectric site if you have the product key (although it is disappointing to have corruption. Fergal seems very helpful, so you never know.
I am also slowly making space, but have a way to go yet.
Keep us informed of progress once it arrives.
bauldy
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